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  1. Bob Norman Says:

    Thinking Out Loud!

    People are anxious to get E-cats and evaluate the technology and have one available to use in their new system. Does it make sense to buy a 1 MW system and sell the units as stand alone units.

    $2M/50 = $40k Seems high, but these are the 27kW units so the cost per KW is lower than Rossi’s 2000 per KW figure.

    If the system was sold with 116 units as was stated for the October 28th test, that would translate to a unit cost of $17.24K per Unit. Not a bad price for desirous individuals.

    Does this make sense to anyone or did I just have a stupid idea?

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I’m surprised the Chinese haven’t already bought one…to reverse engineer. Maybe Rossi refuses to sell them one.

  2. Gillana Says:

    What is very imortant any more? The 28/10/2011 test has been succesfull: an extra output energy has been delivered opposite an incoming input energy ratio of above 6 times.
    Let’it be.Finacials lows will make the market in despite of any kind of skeptics.

  3. Bob Says:

    Defkalion has posted their data sheet at this Link.

    It will be interesting to get peoples comments after they have read it over

  4. Bob Says:

    How long do we wait until before Junk Science if Once Again the Tag on Cold Fusion.

    We have gone through a frenzy of activity leading up to Rossi’s October 28th test and defkalion’s announcement only to go into a quiet period. This is somewhat expected and a natural flow of events, never the less the waiting is hard. As a strong believer and even stronger “dreamer” that its real, some things are bothersome for even people that believe. A few of my concerns are listed below.
    1) No Customer or Customer feedback yet.
    2) No long term demonstration of operation by test or online video
    3) No customer names released
    4) No specifics on factory development or hiring
    1) No prototype display or demonstration of working unit
    2) No Factory Tour, Video etc.
    3) Test data or compliance testing not given.

    All of these things are bothersome, but counter arguments can be given for each. If things don’t progress in a timely manner the wall of skepticism will build and eventually CF will again slip into the Junk Science category. How long can we go in this “quiet” mode before real harm is done and what do people need to keep the momentum going.

  5. Craig Binns Says:


    Excellent post. Especially the list of “bothersome things”. I hope Roger doesn’t tell you to shut up. Instead he should read your bothersome list, and think seriously about it.

    Meanwhile Rossi’s collecting 10,000 names of people wanting to buy e-cats. A “sucker list” like that is a valuable item in the wonderful world of free energy, as it can be sold to other swindlers. We’ll see if he asks these fools for some financial investment too.

  6. Bob Says:


    These are mine.

    1) Customers will verify that Rossi’s E-Cat truly works
    2) defkalion will show a working system and enter the market.
    3) The understanding of the reaction methodology will expand with multiple ways to make significant CF reactions
    4) There will be multiple fuel and catalyst recipes
    5) While producible results will increase, the push-back from government will stiffen and the year will in in a huge regulatory quagmire.

    6) No, the world won’t end!

    What do the rest of you Sages see?

  7. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    New article in Forbes:

    Bruce, how do you actuate your search box? I can’t find a button.

  8. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Nice positive article:
    “What if Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) really works?”

  9. Anony Mole Says:

    The impact of NFE on the third world.

    • What does the third world lack that nearly free energy would provide?
    • What challenges would they face initially and years down the road?
    • What are some of the systemic changes that would occur if NFE were widely available?

    Abundant fresh and pure water, enjoyed by all first world nations is first on all humanitarian’s lists for third world countries. Greatly improved hygiene would be a top priority. Direct health benefits and the elimination of waterborne diseases another. Agricultural a natural third.

    Power for refrigeration, lighting, heating, cooling, welding, construction, transportation, information. All of these we take for granted that are rare and dear to the 2 billion impoverished.

    Food would still be a problem I fear – land for food would be hoarded, lorded over. Despots and vigilantes would still rule such places. These power freaks would be the first challenge to dispersion of NFE in such places as Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Afghanistan, etc. The actual distribution of LENR units would be throttled through such magistrates and bandits. Until power units became as cheap and ubiquitous as plastic bottles, they would be a controlled commodity.

    It is well known that as standard of living rises, natality, or birth rate, drops. In fact, fertility drops so low in countries like Japan and northern Europe, that worker shortages are predicted in the coming decades. Countries like China, India, and Bangladesh, along with their third world countries, need only have their standards of living lifted so far by NFE that the Earth’s population explosion ceases and retreats.

    Imagine if those 2 billion impoverished all had education, health wealth and prosperity, think of the invention and and progress they themselves could make – all on their own! Humanity is missing out on their contribution because we have not figured out how to lift them out of poverty yet.

    But also imagine the environmental impact an extra 2 billion middle class people would have on the planet. Energy might not be a problem but everything resource based will surely be.

    We’ll definitely need Mars’, the Moon’s and other resources in the coming centuries if nothing more than to house, entertain and bedeck 10 billion people in bluejeans, iEyes, Coke, personal hovercrafts and pocket Crays.

  10. Craig Brown Says:

    BIG NEWS: Video: NASA Admits LENR Will Power The World

  11. Anony Mole Says:

    The impact of NFE on agriculture

    What aspects of agriculture, however nuanced, will reveal themselves radically changed with the advent of NFE? I’ll volunteer a few to start it off.

    • The shift to monolithic ag-corps will stop and reverse. People will move to support more of their dietary needs through rooftop, pocket-lot, and localized farms.

    • Heirloom crops will swell in popularity. Ancient varieties of seeds, stored by seed banks, will be grown in thousands of newly created “discover your ‘roots'” efforts.

    • The ag-corps will start to sell off portions of their unmanageably large holdings to “return to basics” groups leaving the cities.

    • Growing seasons will expand on either end of the calendar as inexpensive ground heating allows non-greenhouse crops to start earlier and last longer through the seasons.

    • Schools, from grade school on, will begin teaching horticulture.

    • Nitrogen-fixed fertilizers will become so cheap that water systems around the planet will become choked with algae blooms driven by fertilizer runoffs.

    • • • ?

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Current non-arable lands will be converted to produce food for local populations by desalination and cheap fertilizers. As local varieties of foodstuffs grows in abundance and popularity crop and produce brokers will step in to buy up surplus agriculture output. This will be seen as a localized revenue stream by much of the land area rich developing world. Millions of micro farmers will popup around the equator. Eventually the inter-tropical zone will grow the balance of food for the planet.

      An explosion of exotic varieties of consumer facing food and drink products will be sold on Strange new beer, wine and liquors made from new and bizarre ingredients will be the first to show up in online markets. New import businesses will spring up to support these curious products. The FDA will be completely swamped reviewing all of these new imports and will be split as a result. A new FFFA – federal foreign food administration will work with only imports while the original FDA will be renamed to the federal drug administration.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Vertical agricultural facilities use combinations of tilapia, red and blue LED lighting systems, and non-pollinating produce in an old Chicago meatpacking plant. All they need is LENR to provide the heating and electricity – and bingo, unheralded success and a model for cities around the world.

      • Bob Norman Says:

        Anony Mole, I am designing a sea food and plant eco system and plan to give it a try when the heating units are readily available. Its amazing what you can think of when you get into design mode and start generating ideas. The more I look at this type of application the more exciting it gets. A huge food revolution is about to occur, we just need some CF heaters.

      • brucefast Says:

        Unfortunately, Bob, I don’t think Anony follows nickelpower any more. Seems that he’s mad at me for kicking maryyugo off the site, so he kicked me off his favorites list. Hmmm.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      The Faber-Bosch Process, that of fixing nitrogen by use of enormous pressures and high temperatures, is so energy intensive that poor countries effectively cannot afford fertilizer. They can’t import it as that expense is too high, nor can they make it themselves due to the high costs of energy. LENR will come to the rescue here and enable small fertilizer plants to function near the lands where their product is needed.

      In the article above, the author mentions that the IMF and the World Bank banned African in-country subsidies for fertilizer manufacture. Why would they do that? When Malawi went rogue and did it anyway (produced their own fertilizers) in 2006, their crop yields double and then tripled. What is the IMF and World Bank up to? Anyone see the “Battle in Seattle”?

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Sorry, it’s Haber-Bosch Process.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        What is the IMF and World Bank up to?

        My guess is, it’s part of the progressive agenda to reduce the world population. They probably believe that only the animals are worthy of living in Sub-Saharan Africa.

        Remember the first guidepost of the “Georgia GuideStones” is: 1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Only 500,000,000 worthy ones allowed. In other words they want 92% of us dead… not them.

  12. Anony Mole Says:

    The impact of NFE on transportation

    What transportation industries will blossom? Which flounder and fail? What new modes of travel will we have? What will abundant fuel for transportation do to other industries?

    NASA focuses on air and space travel within their slide presentation. But what of us, humans, and our travel needs?

    • Mobile homes will become popular again. Tricked out homes tooling the roads with expanded mobile home theme and nature parks their destination.

    • Personal hover craft, submarines, and aerodynamic helium flight will be economically possible.

    • Natural raw resource exports and imports will enable manufacturing in places considered too remote or inconvenient today.

    • Antarctica will become a popular tourist destination.

    • Northern hemisphere cities will practically empty during the winter as more than half of the residents head south to tropical resorts.

    • Cars will become like grocery carts, you pick one up when you need one, drop it off anywhere when you’re done.

    • • • ?

  13. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    How bout hot-air balloons?

  14. Anony Mole Says:

    Witnessing and participating in history.

    I think I’ve figured out why Rossi and LENR and the “new energy frontier” is so provocative. It’s because we may be witnessing, participating and even perhaps even shaping history. And as “commoners”, mere individuals, the digital proletariat if you will, to be able to influence history is an opportunity we do not want to miss.

    In the past, only the likes of Rockefellers, Carnegies, Vanderbilts, Morgans and later, Gates and Jobs’ and Pages have been in positions to command world directions. But here, by dreaming and discussing what the world might be like with this new and revolutionary energy source, we can help guide policy perhaps, or at least feel like we are.

    If LENR proves to be what we all hope it might be, we, discussing this here today, will have been agents in the birth of a new energy world order. Pretty cool really.

  15. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Argon catalyst? Discussion at vortex.

  16. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Somewhat off-topic, but this may be of interest and give some hope in the new generation of physicists. Eat your heart out, ITER! is a hot fusion experiment run by a young guy still at school, but the result is extremely professional. I wonder how much his dad earns?

    • Bob Says:

      Simon, this kid is amazing and done on the cheap compared to the tokamac crowd. Hope this guy stays engaged, he looks real promising.

  17. Anony Mole Says:

    The impact of NFE on recreation

    What new recreational activity would you do if you had a backpack power station?

    • Remote location music and movie studios would be possible.
    • Hot showers and electricity while backpacking in the wilderness.
    • Jet-ski across the Atlantic.
    • Non-stop motocross races that spanned continents.
    • LENR Powered air-gliders flying down the coast of Africa.
    • Energy boosted frameworks for disabled folks. Think “Big Dog” from Boston Dynamics. So far Big Dog is seriously constrained by energy delivery. Ding! Cured.
    • Scuba vehicles and tow-fish.
    • Refrigeration while camping in the desert.
    • Power for running gold dredges or charging metal detector batteries.

    • • • ?

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Ski lifts run on electricity either pulled off of the grid or produced locally through diesel generators. Millions of dollars spent powering these devices. NFE could reduce this to nil. It would be nice to have lift ticks cost less than $20 bucks again.

      • brucefast Says:

        If ski hills charged too little, the lines waiting for the lift would become ridiculous. Further, as there would be little money in it, the ski hill wouldn’t be motivated to put in more and faster lifts, and other companies wouldn’t want to build more ski hills.

        That is why we say that the price is set by supply and demand. Additionally, while a ski lift requires some energy to run it, the cost of the equipment to run a ski hill, and the cost of labor both dwarf the cost of energy I’m sure.

        Sorry Anony, but I don’t envision a price break at the ski hill.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Yes, but having a personal ski-lift attached to you powered by LENR would remove the whole ski-lift problem. The slope owners would then have to charge to enter their engineered slopes instead (tickets again?), but you could get up any hill unaided.

        Here I’m envisioning small, light LENR reactors with built-in generator and drive system. The first two are almost there, but I need to work on the third.

      • Bob Norman Says:

        Simon, I see the potential. Mount the snow board on a light track run by a LENR engine. Get to the top and pop the snow board off, throw the tracks and engine over your shoulder (backpack) and take off. This would drive the park rangers crazy, people would do nothing but out of bounds boarding.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Sounds fun!

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Boston Dynamics, funded by DARPA, will never be able to deploy something like this:

      Such a thing will require a very dense, very powerful energy source. Why are they even developing something like this if such an energy source is not going to be available? Without at least 3kWs sustained (two 1500 watt hair driers) this cheetah just won’t hunt. 1 kW/hour from a standard 50 lb. car battery – you’d need 3 batteries (150 pounds) to run this thing for an hour. Not gonna happen. If we convert the battery source to lithium batteries, we can cut the weight by more than half, say 65 pounds of Li-ion batteries for 3 kWhs for 1 hour of continuous operation. This thing will essentially just be running from power station to power station.

      Yeah, they’ll be using a gas engine to drive it eventually and their Big Dog version runs an extremely noisy internal combustion engine – I’m sure that goes over real well out on the battle field. Without a LENR type energy source – why bother. Stand alone robotic devices are effectively crippled by the lack of an energy dense, long lasting power source.

  18. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Self-powered drill-bit. Undersea mining. Insitu smelting. Self-powered artificial organs (like heart or cochlear).
    Weather modification. Long duration aircraft to replace communication satellites and towers. Each marketing area could have its own broadcast aircraft with customized ads for that market.

    • brucefast Says:

      “Long duration aircraft to replace communication satellites and towers.” Now there’s a thought, drones that fly patterns over major rural roadways providing complete cell coverage. Where I come from, we’ve got thousands of miles of the stuff.

  19. brucefast Says:

    I’ve been very busy lately, if you haven’t noticed. There are some really nice posts here. I’ll update some of them soon I promise. However, I just got mad at Steve Krivit (doesn’t take much), so my anger took precedence over these posts. I have found that a post must be at the top for a day or two or it just gets ignored.

  20. Bob Norman Says:

    I wonder if weather modification could be done by a network of water spouts. Lets say that the oil pipe lines are converted to carrying desalinated water from the ocean. Every so often have a tap in the pipeline. The tap feeds a hose that is carried aloft by a LENR helicopter, once at altitude you start spraying water and add moisture to the air.By having a system of these that control how much moisture is sprayed some control on climate temperature could be maintained.

    If this was done world wide enough control may result that things like hurricanes and tornadoes could be avoided. What a saving in property and human suffering could result.

  21. Bob Norman Says:

    I recently had frequent power failures at my home, the power company put a special meter that tracked my power very closely. Sure enough the problem was occurring about 10PM when the big loons were landing at the river a couple hundred miles away. Good detective job by the power company. In the coarse of monitoring the problem I saw the data and saw my fluctuations in power. The high and lows were 5x and that got me to thinking how hard it will be for everyone to plan for peak power spikes. Homes could have a bank of Capacitors or batteries, but that’s not that attractive.

    In thinking about the problem it would seem that it could be solved by averaging the power needs across several houses. It seems like a block of houses could get together and build a small power plant in the center of the houses and run a mini grid. By doing this the usage could be averaged and a good reliable system with an aggregate overall power production could be used. Removing the power generator from the house removes fire hazards and possible noise issue. One central point would allow ease of use for a service person.

    Run it like a co-op and when you buy a house you buy into the co-op for your part of the power costs. With this approach it would make economic sense to pay for inverters and synchronizers and sell the excess power, with the money deferring the co-op cost of maintenance.

    Curios what others think of this idea.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      My house is run on a 16A trip – about 4KW total. I have to be careful about peaks and thus I sequence heavy usage such as washing, drying, water-heating and the electric kettle. Water-heating (my main expense) runs overnight at cheaper rates when I am otherwise using very little power. I would expect that, with household power generation, a small microcontroller would control where the power goes at any time to ensure that the peak power is not exceeded. For my needs, a time-switch is adequate.

      While communal power-generation is basically better and cheaper overall, it can cause problems when people want to all boil a kettle at a particular time (say half-time in Superbowl). In the UK, the power utilities look at the TV break-times in order to predict the spikes in usage and thus have the generating power ready when needed. This would be unlikely to be reasonable in a group of a few houses, so maybe it will be better to have a generator per house, since they will be relatively very cheap and the clever control systems (running a group of houses) relatively expensive.

      I’m not sure why loons landing a couple of hundred miles away should affect your power. Interesting….

      The climate control idea sounds feasible.

      • Bob Says:

        Thanks for your comments. An active switched power box could be a great little product to build for home systems.

        The loons coming in to nest for the night were hitting the power lines sending spikes down the line. The power cpompany watch the spikes and figured out where and had people sit and watch. ure enough they were hitting the lines. The partially solved the problem by putting up lights so they would see the lines. Not 100%, but better than it was. I was convinced it was a saw mill close buy and when they told me loons I thought I was being played with.

    • alaincoe Says:

      In pioneer countries (us, australia…) there is a strong demand/mythology of independence.
      In lost place (bush, polar base, lost farms) it can be rational, but most of the time I think it is misundestanding.

      what you describe is simply a grid.
      most of the cost of a grid is connecting locally (like the last mile for telephone).

      if you admit that it is less expensive to share electricity, peak consumption, over production, with you neighbors, then it is nearly the same price as sharing with the whole region.

      also you can expect big power generator to be less expensive per MWh, than your own CHP. CHP can be good anyway, but just as the usual complement, that you sell to the grid.

      if you balance the production according to the demand, unlike today where production is bound to big Nuke, big Dam, big oil/gaz that is hard to place or install where you need,
      then you will need much less high voltage line, thus the grid cost will be much more like the local grid, but with more tolerance to peak.

      in that context you can design the production on, the grid to be part of home/corp CHP, block generators, city-generators, and big region power-plant…

      the choice will depend on the culture, the relative efficiencies, the investment capacity of local authorities, individual, producing corps , consuming corps…

      but anyway the grid will be useful and not so expensive compared to the service and savings associated.
      maybe even it could be considered not like a delivery Chanel, but as a symetric transport system, like roads.

      Sure the grid intelligence will have to change, depending on the production structure.
      If CHP are very common, and local power-plant too, the plant will have to collaborated, and maybe even some consumers, but unlike with solar or wind energy, there won’t be so much focus on consumption restriction. Clearly Smart Grid is a key technology, especially if you try to reduce the cost of the grid, by disconnecting partially the sub-grids.

      there will also be a strong pressure on administrative costs of the grid and power, because if administration todays cost 5% of the cost, with LENR electricity costing 10x less, it will be 50%, and this cannot be accepted.

      Grid bill should be restricted to paying the cables, and the smart grid local agent communicating with your CHP and power machines.
      Billing should be automatic and very simple, provided you cooperate with the grid.
      grid will be shared like road an traffic light.

      • Bob Says:

        Alaincoe, thanks for your comments. Its great to see people perspectives on usage. I have found that you ask 10 people, you get 10 different answers as to how things should be done when it relates to personal, daily living.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I predict that power grids will only remain popular with communists, gimmeCrats, and the Amana Colonies.

  22. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Hydrogen from H2O at high flow rates Using Catalytic Carbon.

    The amount of energy required varies for different catalysts. The information below described a new catalyst, CC, that requires zero energy input once the reaction is started and heated to 180F. After that, hydrogen is produced for as long as fuel (water and aluminum) are provided.
    And there is another big advantage. Using this new catalyst, the oxygen stays in the water and the ONLY gas that bubbles up for use as a fuel is hydrogen. This is good because hydrogen is NOT explosive, until it is combined with oxygen.
    And, there is another big advantage. Using this new catalyst, the hydrogen can be produced ON DEMAND at any required rate. This makes the use of storage tanks an obsolete idea, because tanks are not needed.

  23. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

  24. Bob Says:

    Another over Unity Energy source

    Don’t know if everyone has seen this, but good old Sterling ALLAN has found a new energy source from a company in South Africa. He is bringing one back so it should be able to be tested soon.

    I’m very skeptical on this, but hay, he has hardware so who knows.

    • brucefast Says:

      Let it be known that the LENR crowd doesn’t buy every crackpot theory that comes along. Mr. Allan is a trip. But hey, if he demos it in front of real scientists, and shows that it does what it claims, I’m willing to open my skeptical eyes.

      • Bob Says:

        Bruce, your right, he rarely walks away from anything. This might be of interest as they gave him a unit to take home and try. Not exactly the characteristics of a scam. I hope he has scientists evaluate it and give a report. It shouldn’t take long.
        This might be real, it came from the high tech area of South Africa. Call me skeptically interested (amused).

      • brucefast Says:

        Check Allan’s statement carefully. He paid for the thing — refundable. I bet he’ll try it, it won’t work, they’ll attempt to fix the thing, ladedadeda. It’ll take some while for him to conclude that it doesn’t work. By then the bucket of bolts will have been sold to a bunch of others, and the fraudsters will take off.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        It looks like he’s going to run a house on it. This is a good test – the batteries will soon run down if it doesn’t work. It looks like one of those input battery – motor – generator -output battery deals. No details, though, and no hint of where the energy is coming from.

        Looks like SA did not need to really go there, it could have been shipped just as easily. Communication by Skype would have been sufficient to get good enough pictures and a good idea of the company.

        No details of the size of the machine, and a bit of silly talk in that the batteries are switched “in nanoseconds”. Maybe in a few thousand nanoseconds, that is – it’s kind of hard to switch 5KW that quickly and most people would be happy to switch in around 1 million nanoseconds (1ms). This one may be just around the corner for a while longer.

      • brucefast Says:

        “This one may be just around the corner for a while longer.” :)

  25. Anony Mole Says:

    With $5.5 large, via a gift from Sidney Kimmel of The Jones Group, the University of Missouri will be super charged to deliver an answer to the age old question of whether NI-H2 LENR (and no doubt other reaction combinations) holds any promise.

    For grins and giggles let’s layout and discuss a timeline for what we might expect.
    A month to get the funding straightened out.
    A month to divide, assign and equip the teams (two at least).
    A month to have each team build the apparatuses used for testing.
    A month to test.
    A month to double test and write up results.

    So, let’s see, given that today is Valentine’s Day 2012, by mid-July we might be fortunate enough to see results published on the topic. We’ll have to easily wait as long for Rossi to give us any additional info on his progress. Defkalion and their Seven might have results in just a few weeks, and hopefully they’ve selected groups that can be accepted as trustworthy.

    But let’s assume that it’s Kimmel and his Missouri Tigers that are the only group that come through in the end. Mid July rolls around and Kimmel himself plans to announce to the country that LENR is a reality and that he has asked the University to release the results and the technique for all the world to share.

    What happens next? Will this whole thing be moot by then? Will it still be a controversial subject? Will UofM even be allowed to release the results? Will the results be doctored? As the grad students designed and tested the devices themselves will they instantly be hired by the energy industrial complex? Will we all regress into blathering idiots by then – tortuously waiting for this enormous shoe to drop?

    • Bob Norman Says:


      Your talking a University, they never move with that speed. Its more likely that Iran will use their flying Saucer with its Tractor beam to telaport (sp) the lab back to Iran. I’m guessing here, but Ross Perro and Dick smith will combine resources and mount an effort to get the lab back. I’m guessing once again, but I think you will see the lab back in Missouri by July or August and real data emerging from the labs about Christmas time. I could be wrong on this as it was a swag with no detailed effort put in on the timeline.

      About the Missouri Tigers, the #3 spot will be hard to hold!

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – like Bob I’m a bit less than overwhelmed by this good news. Being a university, my bet is that they will try to duplicate previous experiments. We know they didn’t work reliably then (so probably will remain unreliable), and there’s no guarantee that they will try to get to the bottom of the theory and try different methods that have more chance of working reliably and effectively. That’s just too much money and politics will decide who it goes to. Probably not to the people with new ideas – and new ideas are needed.

      I could be wrong here in maligning this university and to some extent universities in general – I certainly hope so.

      What they need to do is a synthesis of all the experimental results from the last 100-odd years, and think on what made it work better and what made it less reliable. It’s mostly a thought process, and could be done by brainstorming with some small experiments as follow-up to confirm that the theoretical basis is moving in the right direction. Thinking is cheap – I wonder if that’s why it is not being used much? The odd experiments would only make a small dent in a grant that size.

      In the course of the analysis, it is fairly certain that any doubters will be convinced that LENR happens a lot more than currently accepted.

      The rest of the money could set up the factory to build large numbers of the resultant device for sale.

    • brucefast Says:

      Hmmm, the B of Bologna wanted $200k and two years to provide basic testing on the e-cat. How much will $5.5m really do? It won’t do much.
      And how long will it take to get there?
      A long time.
      And who will believe it?
      Well, not Craig Binns, that’s for sure.

  26. Anony Mole Says:

    What would I do if I, and/or I and my team of engineers, had developed a new and unique energy production device? That this device, I had proven to myself, and to dozens of others, was completely legitimate. That it could produce excess heat energy in the realm of 10 COP. That it was self sustaining with the input of a fraction of the energy it produced to maintain a consistent generating environment. That this device would run for weeks if not months. That I KNEW that this device was going to change the world.

    What would I do?

    I would want to TELL the world.

    I would want to SHOW the world that this device and the technology within it was going to revolutionize all energy production on the planet.

    I would want to SHARE this device and everything about it with the people of the world, knowing that doing so would benefit myself and my family far greater than any amount of money I could sell it for. The shear philanthropic high I would get by giving this away would last for the remainder of my life and into my children’s lives. I would be invited to visit with every head of state, every major news channel, invited to the UN, to Wallstreet, to every important venue in the world.

    But before all that I would build one that ran perpetually, with all the measurements exposed, without outside power input (I’d add a Stirling engine, or PowerChip energy source to produce the electrical energy to run the internal stabilization environment. At 10 COP, I should be able to use 90% of the output to produce the 10% input that the device would need no?)

    And this perpetually running device, this beacon of salvation, running in a sealed plexiglass box, powering a single tiny LED to show the world that it continued to work, would be publicly positioned and setup to broad cast via the web its continued operation. It would be the candle of hope in a dismal world.

    That’s what I would do.

    What would you do?

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Good idea on the perpetual demo. Reminds me of Edison’s eternal lightbulb.

    • brucefast Says:

      It sounds like you are saying that Rossi hasn’t behaved as you would have, so you find him hard to believe. Please, before focusing on Rossi, look at the other evidence. Some of the best of it is here:

      Further, please factor in a couple of things when considering what Rossi would do. He started by showing his technology off at the U. of Bologna, in front of physicists. They were impressed, but the world wasn’t. He let one of them test the thing for 18 hours. He was impressed but the world wasn’t. He invited top physicists from Sweden. One was the head of the Swedish Skeptic Society for gosh sakes. They were impressed but the world wasn’t. He let techs from a Swedish magazine come with meters and gauges to test every theory of fraud that they could find. No fraud was found, but the world was not impressed. Despite the fact that the 18 hour test did not involve boiled water, the major complaint had to do with the dryness of the steam. So he ran another test, invited top scientists, and news outlets. He eliminated the steam equation. The skeptics claimed that the thermocouples were placed wrong. They remained unimpressed. It is clear from reading the tone of Rossi’s posts that he grew weary of the criticism. Further, he was seeking to build a finished prototype, and a manufacturing facility. I think that Rossi just got fed up with the drone of the armchair quarterback.

      Now Anony, in light of what Rossi went through with his critics, consider this: If you set up your demo, put a webcam on it, and let people watch it, would they believe you or become critics. Rossi’s machine must be plugged into the wall. Don’t you think that if your demo was plugged into the wall there wouldn’t be 100 Craig Binns’s in the world that would say, “Hey, what’s with the power plug.” How stupid is this Anony guy anyway! Would it grate on you after a week or two? Think about it.

      But more, Rossi developed a relationship with Defkalion. The relationship ended badly, and first thing you know he had a competitor. Even if Rossi wanted to prove the thing to the world NOW, he still must come to the recognition that doing so will only invite more competitors. Maybe proving the thing to the world NOW is a poor business strategy as well as a grind of criticism.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      The root problem of this entire LENR discussion, given the events as they have unfolded, is that this is not business as usual. This is not just another iPad, IBM PC or even the original telephone; and the telephone was huge as a technological breakthrough. No, this is even deeper, more systemic, so utterly fundamental it can only be compared to the discovery of oil or even the discovery of fire. If anyone spends just 5 minutes reading up on what this technology represents they instantly grok the enormity of its potential impact.

      Yet here we are, squabbling over the tiniest of imagined details, debating over hearsay as if they were facts. Yet that’s all we have – hearsay.

      When I found myself pulling back from all this infighting and looked back at what those first 5 minutes had done to my vision of the future I began to question the motives of all parties involved. That’s when I tried to imagine what I would do had I been given the opportunity to expose such a fundamentally disruptive and hope engendering technology. As I pondered this, and this is what you picked up on, as most would, the whole sequence of events, experiment results announcements, commentary by all sides left me feeling hollow, betrayed even. I still feel hollow. And I’m trying to come to grip with why I feel this way and how we could have come to this point of what I find to be failed expectations.

      This technology is so monumental, represents such a titanic paradigm shift that I am incredulous as to how we could be even having this discussion. We should be celebrating right now! Try as I might I cannot reconcile these two situations; where we are and where we should be. Where we are is this mire of half truths and constant bickering. Where we should be is heralding a new energy technology driving a perpetually burning torch that marks the next era in humankind evolution. (Yes I think it’s that big!)

      My only dream is that this hollow feeling is unfounded, that mine and the world’s expectations will not be dashed on the rocks of false hope.

      • brucefast Says:

        Anony, you accurately represent the significance of LENR.

        “Yet here we are … debating over hearsay as if they were facts.”

        Hearsay, “unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one’s direct knowledge.”

        Anony, there is a lot of evidence being presented here that is not heresay! Look at the replicators link: Each of the “replicators” has a link to more information. In virtually every case that link goes to valid (non-hearsay) evidence. In a few cases it goes to pages that then provide the valid link. This is not heresay by any reasonable standard. This is evidence that would stand up in court.

        “This technology is so monumental, represents such a titanic paradigm shift that I am incredulous as to how we could be even having this discussion. We should be celebrating right now!”
        How true!

        The reality, however, is that most of the scientific world remains unconvinced. This is so because the LENR theory doesn’t fit the current grid, but more so because the technology was already publicly falsified (I believe, errantly) when Pons and Fleischmann presented it back in 1989. This has produced a huge pile of doubt to get past. To make matters worse, Pons and Fleischmann were basically mocked out of the arena. As a result, the fear of acceptance in the scientific community is enormous.

        One other thing you may want to factor in, Anony. Neither of us has ever lived through life changing, science challenging discovery like this. I suspect that every time these two realities, life changing and science challenging, collide it kinda goes like this.

        It is my understanding, for instance, that the invention of the airplane was met with skepticism just like this is. Why? Because a bunch of proud scientists confidently declared that it couldn’t be done. How they explained the bird is a bit beyond me.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – nice that you are still with us – you have a good grasp of the effects of such a world-change.

        Although we can’t celebrate right now, I think we will be able to celebrate this year. It has taken a while for the technology and the theory to ripen and for enough people to take notice that nearly-free energy is imminent. In the meantime there have been a lot of failed applications of the ideas as well as outright scams in the Free Energy field. These have damned the good ideas along with the bad ones, but I think there may be 4 real ones coming soon. None of them are free energy, but all will use an aspect of LENR.

        I am pretty certain that this is not false hope. Heisenberg forbids absolute certainty!

      • Bob Says:

        Anony, that hollow feeling you get is what we all get when we can see the grand future of what life could be like and the doubt creeps in because of delays, skeptics and problems. I share your vision and hope, I just believe it will take longer than expected and it will be rocky getting there. Nothing ever goes as planed and on schedule, if they do the plan was not aggressive.
        May a day I ask, am I a fool, for believing in this. I review the facts and always come to the same conclusion, its real and it will take time to unfold. Wonder how long the cave man waited to figure out fire. It will come!

  27. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Actually, I think Rossi, in his own weird way, has been the ideal evangelist for cold fusion. His ability to enrage skeptics has made him even more impossible to ignore. Being an Italian, insulated him from BigEnergy’s dis-info machine, allowing the idea to reach critical mass before being crushed by the establishment. The timing of his invention was perfect with the world sick of petro-politics, war, and radical Islam.

  28. Craig Binns Says:


    Your post with its strained ad hoc defences of everything
    Rossi has done or not done is unimpressive. You wanted Rossi to go for the $1m test. He didn’t. Don’t bother with excuses. There are none. Rossi responded with his usual torrent of verbal abuse about puppet snakes and millionaire clowns, and you are trying to rationalise this nonsense. Don’t waste your time. He doesn’t deserve it.

    How much longer can people take this charlatan seriously? And those people are right who fear that if indeed there is anything in LENR, Rossi’s shenanigans are in danger of causing it to be dismissed too readily.

    It’s like planetary astronomy, held back for years because Percival Lowell had made the science seem ridiculous, with his “canals on Mars”. And Lowell was an honest obsessive, not a crude swindler like Rossi!

    • brucefast Says:


      I presume you are responding to my response to Anony. It seems also that you have a bit of trouble reading. Please note how I start the comment: Please, before focusing on Rossi, look at the other evidence.

      In my opinion, the best case for Rossi has not been made by Rossi. Consider, for instance, that Defkalion has promised to shit or get off the pot in just a week. Now there might be a bit of a delay, I am not nearly as quick as you to wag a finger if there is a delay. However, Defkalion is not in a position to delay for months and months. Unlike Rossi, Defkalion seems willing to accept Mr. Smith’s offer. This would strongly suggest that they have the goods.

      If Defkalion has the goods, then there has been a commercial grade free energy breakthrough. However, consider what that says about Rossi.

      Consider the case where Rossi is nothing but a hoaxer, but Defkalion is the real thing. This would mean that Rossi showed Defkalion a fake, impossible thing. Using this experience, Defkalion went and made the real impossible thing. Yeah, right.

      • Craig Binns Says:


        The reasoning in your last paragraph is perfect. Possibly – just possibly – Defkalion are working along different lines, and have hit on something undiscovered by Rossi. But much more probably Defkalion is a swindle too.

        I will be most surprised if either of them has the world-changing real deal.

      • brucefast Says:

        Craig, Please, before focusing on Rossi, look at the other evidence.

    • Bob Says:

      Craig, what you are seeing played out daily is what books and movies are made from. Rossi re-energizes maybe the most significant breakthrough of mankind. In his efforts to get going he partners with defkalion and works with the universities. They run into problems and through frustration on both sides they split apart. If it was not real defkalion would have folded. They instead continued to engineer the problems and appear close to being commercial with their solutions. Rossi on the other hand moved to the US to start his efforts anew and try to figure out his problems, which I believe him to be on track to do that, but still may not have everything worked out. Because of these problems his demos were tightly controlled and limited, setting off a fire storm,
      His experience with Universities has left a bad taste and has made him distance himself from them. It appears that sienna gathered data on what Rossi did and passed it to Defkalion, strike 1. Their testing and work schedule gained him nothing. It comes to light that Celani made radiation readings during Rossi’s testing by going to the bathroom and taking readings. With these events and the fact that others are on his trail Rossi believing he has a trillion dollar idea has become paranoid and acts a bit strange and is hard to get along with and is very guarded. I susspect many here would not hold up as well as Rossi under such conditions.
      The data says the technology os real, will it be Rossi, defkalion or others that get to commercial realization is just a big guess. Money, for and against will shape this as will government(s).
      Mentali I expect delays from everyone. Anyone who ever worked on a technical product and faced huge manufacturing and regulation issues know that surprises and delays can be counted on.
      I believe.

  29. Anony Mole Says:

    Should be shared and watched:

    Entertaining and educational – if a bit dismal due to the conclusions:

    LENR sure would help this don’t you think? Interesting point about growth consuming all savings made through conservation.

  30. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I disagree with almost every point of the film.
    I believe that most petroleum products are not derived from fossils but from the “Deep Hot Biosphere”. Oil and gas can be found at levels far deeper than fossils ever existed. That’s not to say that biosphere can keep up with the world’s production and the deep petroleum is much more expensive to produce.

    The world is no where near peak oil production. US oil and production are increasing monthly. North Dakota’s production alone has already surpassed some OPEC countries. Natural gas is so plentiful that we’re building new liquification facilities so we can export it. The US is called the Saudi Arabia of natural gas but an even larger field has just been found in Argentina. The city of Paris sits on a huge shale gas field.

    Man’s problems can just about always be solved by man if he is given the freedom to tackle the problem. The film promotes tree hugging socialistic ideas. These people want 90% of us dead.

    The state of Texas could comfortably house and support the entire world’s population. There is one ocean fish farming company that could satisfy the world’s appetite for fish….in fact that company overproduced so much in the past year that their profits shrank 95%.

    The major peril to man is stupid government. The US debt will soon be so large that its entire GDP will be insufficient to pay just the interest. Give the 3rd world economic freedom and they will become prosperous enough to stop growing their population. I remember when Japan had astronomical population growth. In 20 years China’s problem will be not enough workers to support its economy.

    Unshackle man and he will work wonders. It’s looking more and more likely that Andrea Rossi just did that.

    • Bob Says:

      YES, I couldn’t agree more. I just watched this and felt I was watching an agenda 21 film from the UN. This is the same garbage schools are teaching our kids.
      There is an oil find in Texas along the Mexican border that may equal the ND Bakken oil find, but government is trying everything possible to shut it down. There are more trees in north America now than when the Pilgrims landed. The population explosion everyone was worried about in the 60’s never occurred, as societies progress the birth rate declines. The revolution in rice farming alone has changed the equation and a similar thing appears to be close with wheat.
      The air pollution is better than when I was a kid, the water is much cleaner also.
      We have a fringe group that has taken over the agenda on population, energy and food. I’m hoping that LENR is real and these arguments will soon disappear for LENR solves all of the issues.
      We need to be energy conscious, not pollute and be good guardians of our world and try to figure out why government is doing everything in opposition to our good.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Well, it can’t be said that the film isn’t controversial then. Par for the course here I’d say. Is it me, or do the people on these LENR lists seem to be easily affronted? Undoubtedly every “fact” referenced in that flick could be contested, shown to be completely bogus by referencing a different set of “facts.” I thought the delivery was well done and oddly, I could find no actual agenda aside from “go local, become self sufficient, it can’t hurt.” The message about growth being based on debt is hard to contest. Lastly, the concept of conservation without change to growth mechanisms is a valid point. Growth will simply consume all savings produced by conservation measures, unless the the mechanism and rate of growth is altered. Seriously, can the world support 9 billion “U.S citizen” class people?

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – it took a while to get the time to watch this. I prefer reading words – I remember it better and can check on things, where with a film you either rely on a (possibly erroneous) memory or sit taking notes. I could never really read my lecture notes….

        I think we’d find confirmation of most of the points quoted, but as Iggy and Bob point out they are still probably not true – it’s very hard to find truth amongst all the conflicting information unless you go get it yourself.

        With LENR, I think the world can support 9 billion US citizens, providing the more spectacular wastes of resources are avoided. The film states that a billion currently go hungry, but it does not take account of the food surpluses in Europe and America. Russia could have food surpluses more than it does, if it could make a more efficient system. At the moment there is an overall food surplus in the world, and production is held back to quotas so as not to flood the market.

        At the moment, solar energy from the otherwise nearly-useless deserts could be used to make Hydrogen, which could then be transported anywhere for use at low cost. We may get some complaints from people saying it spoils the beauty of the desert, but oh well…. Even without LENR, it is possible to supply a massive amount of energy, though the money-politics of the world would change somewhat.

        The final points of the film, about how to leave a lighter footprint on the Earth by buying local produce etc. are good if you can follow them (I do). If you live in a city, it becomes very difficult to do this, and you are forced to travel from the residential zone to the factory or office zone. Governments in the States and Europe have for a long time made this their policy (possibly to be prettier?). If you want local food, you have to drive some distance to the farmers’ market to get it unless you have a very enlightened local shop.

        On the point about the banks’ requirement for continual growth to make the sums work, I certainly agree. It seems like a giant Ponzi scheme where one day the sky will come crashing down.

  31. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I’m not affronted, Anony Mole. I just gave my reaction. I think you’re a very smart guy and an excellent writer.

    I prefer local production too but I don’t want it rammed down my throat.

    If certain societies choose to over breed then they can suffer the consequences. Central planning usually get it wrong.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Iggy, I’m onboard with your abiotic hydrocarbon genesis reference. I’ve read too much to think that all of the hydrocarbon is a result of dead ferns and dinosaurs. I mean, look at Saturn’s moon Titan – covered with methane/ethane? Who’s to say that buried deep in the crust of that planetoid moon heat and pressure are not cooking up some sweet delicious crude out of the abundant methane there?

      The film seemed unique in its mixing of many aspects of the energy economy, regardless if it got much of the facts from aging, questionable sources. Debt stirred in with hydrocarbon dependent industrial agro, mixed in with growth implications, sprinkled with lots of hockey stick stats regarding rare earths, water, population, etc. I have not seen such a comprehensive assembly of such information yet presented. And as it had an energy bend, I felt it appropriate to share here. Taken with a shaker of salt, the implications the film presents surely mean the next 20-50 years are going to be tumultuous. If LENR can take the sting out of what looks to be a painful spike in all those usage charts – hell, if LENR (or something like it) doesn’t come along soon… I think that was what the film was trying to portray. Maybe the producers would be interested in producing such a palatable video on LENR?

  32. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    The Boy Who Played With Fusion
    “Taylor Wilson always dreamed of creating a star. Now he’s become one.”

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Back around 2000 I stopped to gas up at a country store near Hope, Arkansas. I was sitting out front drinking an RC Cola and starting chatting with an old guy wearing overalls.

      I said, “Mister, how come a small town like Hope produces so many important people, like Bill Clinton, Mack McClarty, Vince Foster, and Mike Huckebee?”

      The old fellow replied, “It all goes back to that old German doc from Brazil. Dr Mengeledorf flew in once a week in a Fokker Trimotor. He operated the earliest invitro-fertilization clinic in the South. He wuz here from the late 40s to the late 60s. Purty soon we’s having a lot of smart younguns. Word spread and Ms Perot came up from Texarcana.”

      • Craig Binns Says:


        Not content with boosting Pinochet, you attribute the merits of prominent American figures to genetic procedures conducted by Dr Mengele!!

        I’m beginning to wonder whether mad SS scientists haven’t been messing about with your own DNA. It would explain quite a lot.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Thanks Iggy this is an amazing story. I’m glad he’s on our side.

    • alaincoe Says:

      it looks like hot fusion, by inertial confinment.
      naming that LENR is false.
      I don’t know if their experiment is real and their poisoning too, but it looks like classic hot fusion, with the expected fast neutrons.

      LENR experiments lead to low radiation level.

  33. Bob Says:

    I wrote Sterling Allen and asked where the Trip report from Africa was and if it was thumbs up or thumbs down.

    He just responded back and said it was positive and that he had submitted the draft 25 hours ago.

  34. Anony Mole Says:

    Bill Gates at a 2010 TED talk, remarked that if he had just one wish he would wish for a nearly free energy source that produced no CO2. (Minute 17:17)

    A coincidence? If Bill Gates is so emphatic about new energy sources he must be aware and deeply interested in LENR. If so where is his touch? Where do we see his fingerprints? Is he biding his time, waiting for Mediterranean Miracle workers to blaze the trail? If so he must have a ton of faith in that those said miracle workers have the goods to deliver. This has been a theme in my posts of late, and it is regarding that hollow feeling that festers within; if the likes of Bill Gates, who truly appears to have taken the entire world’s population to heart, does NOT have a substantial portion of his influence driving the development of LENR – then, why? If Bill is missing from this equation…

    If Bill Gates were to come out and announce his investment in a LENR generator, well, chill the champagne ‘cuz we’re gonna party like it’s 1999. There would be absolutely no question about LENR then I’m sure of it.

    Hmm, OK then, is Bill working with the government, financial plutocrats and military complex to make sure that his investment does not cause a chaotic collapse? Are his charity legions lining up the resource supply chain to ensure LENR has the capacity to overwhelm the world? I keep looking for a sign of his influence, for a sign of any of the world’s major player’s influence. I keep looking.

    So, where is Bill?

    • Bob Says:

      Anony Mole, you pose an interesting question. About a year or so ago, Gates was mentioned in the rumor mill on some of the blogs, but nothing concrete ever surfaced. Paul Allen and Jeff Bazos have both been linked to private Hot Fusion efforts.
      In addition to Gates, I’m surprised Google hasn’t surfaced in this area. Google uses search statistics to look for business opportunities. I’m sure the whole LENR arena has shown up on their charts for evaluation.
      Hard for me to believe that the technology has so much bad history relating to junk science that not a single big person or entity has stepped forward to champion the cause in the market. Sure, their is prestige to be lost, if proven wrong, but the upside is so huge I am amazed no one is there to carry the torch.
      When you look at events, you question is most interesting.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Dear Dr Rossi,

      (1) Is one of your minority stockholders a well known corporation?

      (2) Is one of your minority stockholders a well known venture capitalist?


      Iggy Dalrymple
      Andrea Rossi
      February 21st, 2012 at 3:55 PM

      Dear Iggy Dalrymple:
      1- no comment
      2- no comment
      Warm Regards,

  35. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Tomorrow, Feb 24, 2012, is “D Day” (Defkalion Day).

    • Bob Says:

      Lets hope the tests go well, so the lawyers can officially jump in and get there hands into the issue. I know I won’t feel its real until the lawyers are hovering.

  36. Anony Mole Says:

    In addition to the following simple questions I’ve asked so far:

    • Where is Japan in all this? They have the most to win with LENR.
    • Where are China, India, Indonesia?
    • Where are Royal Dutch Shell, Exxon, Chevron, BP, Sinopec, PetroBras, etc.?
    • Where are Buffet and Gates?

    If LENR is technology that is about to change the world? Where is the evidence of it in the behavior of those entities mentioned above?

    And now I ask my next question:

    • Where are the defectors, the traitors, the spies?

    If Rossi/Defkalion are building devices that are worth $trillions on the market, there are most definitely people internal to these two endeavors who are privy to the secret and could easily slip away with it to any of those entities listed up there in the big player list.

    Where are the spies clandestinely sliding in to film and record and steal the plans and information regarding this trillion dollar industry?

    Where are the defectors, being paid $1M or more to walk out the door with the secret answer to the world’s energy woes?

    The cold war saw vast and effective espionage dedicated to infiltration and theft of military secrets. This technology stands head and heels above such puny counterparts as SR-71s, U-2s, StarWars, nuclear subs, and ICBMs. Doesn’t it?

    So, where are these thieves of salvation?

    Loose the Kraken!

    Free the LENR genie!

  37. Anony Mole Says:

    Had I had this document:
    a document, 3 years old, from the Defense Intelligence Agency briefly outlining the efforts underway at the time, of the various countries involved in LENR research I would probably have had to adjust my theories voiced previously here. It appears that the whole world is hot on the trail of this phenomena. I guess we’ll just have to continue to wait for either Rossi or Defkalion or some other feverishly working team to come clean on this whole thing. Ugg!

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – there are a lot of people, some government-funded, chasing this rainbow. Most seem to be following the Palladium route – maybe not ideal since Palladium is rare and expensive. A few are trying Nickel/Hydrogen. A Russian group is checking on Nickel and also Titanium (my personal bet as being the best). Most are using Deuterium, since it fits their ideas based on hot fusion. The efforts are probably not well-funded; the groups will not be large.

      During the 2nd World War, at Los Alamos, there was urgency to build a working A-bomb, and so many top physicists and engineers were gathered together to live, eat and breathe the subject until the problem was cracked. It took a few years, but they did it. A similar effort by any government now could see the same happen with LENR, but the will to do this is not yet there. Although the threat of annihilation from energy shortage can be seen, it is not yet urgent enough to concentrate the minds of the politicians. The big fusion projects such as ITER have got most of the cake that is there, leaving crumbs for non-mainstream physics.

      Since LENR is undramatic and a reactor looks like a plumbing fixture, it can’t compete with the “star on earth” of a big fusion reactor project. It does not look like you are getting value-for-money for your research grant. This, together with the consensus opinion that LENR is junk science that is promoted only by scammers and self-deluded crazy inventors, means that little money will be forthcoming for basic research unless a philanthropic businessman comes in and gives it. Recently they seem to go the hot fusion route (Jeff Bezos).

      There are back-shed efforts to replicate Rossi’s publicised results (see ecatbuilder) that may get some results, though having looked at what is said there I haven’t much hope. To get quick results, you need top-class physicists, chemists and engineers working together.

      My current hunch is that you will see the first commercial version demonstrated for real (so: indisputable calorimetry and demonstration) about halfway through 2013, and it will probably be by Defkalion. After that it will be around 5 years before the public in general can buy one – regulatory issues and certification problems. It’s going to be a long wait.

      • brucefast Says:

        Simon, this is a very well thought out comment.

        “Since LENR is undramatic and a reactor looks like a plumbing fixture…” What you are saying, is that LENR isn’t “sexy”. I also think that the use of palladium and deuterium increase the sense of “sexy”. (Truth is that I was unaware of palladium, though I have read through periodic tables, until Pons and Fleischmann.)

        I love your paragraph, “During the 2nd World War…” I find it to be in stark contrast to “This, together with the consensus opinion that LENR is junk science that is promoted only by scammers and self-deluded crazy inventors, means that little money will be forthcoming for basic research…” I thing the latter will collapse in a minute (read 6 months) as soon as undeniable proof is presented. I am convinced that once the scientific community gets past its declaration that LENR is “junk science” the funders will be scrambling to do the research. We’ll suddenly have teams of physicists, chemists and engineers working on this technology. The more scientific among them will be trying to nail down “the theory.” The more entrepreneurial will be seeking other formulations that work. Some of us will be busy creating the technology that wraps around this stuff.

        I agree with you that it’ll be some years off before LENR is implemented ubiquitously. I think that the first implementations will look unbelievably amateur compared to the stuff that comes a few years later. But my bet is that once LENR is proven, the push for some of the basics, like cars, will be stronger than you might expect. After all, who’ll want to buy a gas guzzler when a fuel-free model will be coming out in very few years.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – your description is more succinct; LENR is indeed not sexy. A transistor is not sexy compared to a valve (tube) since it doesn’t glow and make little humming noises – look at valve amps available now where the valves are very much on display glowing away. An equivalent transistor amp is 1/10th the the size, cost and weight, and is much more efficient.

        Incidentally, you can buy Palladium jewellery, and if you wish you can buy it in leaf form at about the same cost as Gold.

        I expect a very strong push to get cars powered by LENR, though I think that trucks will be first in line to get converted. Since at the beginning the units will be expensive, bulky and heavy, a haulage operator could see the cost/benefit analysis giving him a payoff in a reasonable time. Cars will be a bit further down the line when the technology has produced better versions. There will be early adopters in cars, but only for the rich. Currently it’s difficult to tell whether an LENR-powered car will be the mainstream or a Hydrogen-powered car (H2 produced by LENR at the filling-station) will be more popular. People do like the sound of an internal combustion engine, after all, and quiet electric cars need to have a noise-maker to make pedestrians aware that they are about to be run over. There is also the problem of infrastructure – those gas-stations are there anyway, and if they install an H2 generator and sell that as well then they will stay in business over the changeover. Given these other factors, I think the Hydrogen-powered car is probably more likely in the short to medium term, since the technology for this is currently available and in use in Japan. It also makes the taxing and surveillance less problematic – the gas-stations would supply H2 already taxed, whereas LENR-powered vehicles would need to have GPS and be taxed per mile/kilometre (so the government always knows where your car is).

  38. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I read somewhere, months ago, that the Jap auto makers
    were burning the midnight oil on trying to master LENR.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – I presume you’re talking about Mitsubishi. They make many things apart from cars, so if the rumours are true (somewhat confirmed by the DIA report Anony pointed to above) then they would be well-placed to capitalise on their invention. Toshiba, on the other hand, currently make an encapsulated fission reactor suitable to power a building. This will run autonomously for about 30 years before needing to replace the fuel. Link is . The Japanese have a lot to gain from getting a safe, small nuclear reactor into mass production.

  39. Bob Says:

    Japan has been heavily involved in LENR for many years.
    China is waiting to copy and sell to the world, someone just needs to ship a unit so they can start their efforts of copying.
    Several Oil companies have mentioned their research in this area, so big oil is involved.
    Car companies are snooping around.
    Warren buffet will never invest in this, he only invests in things he understands, like Coke and Pizza. Rarely will he invest in anything high tech. Buffet is an idiot in my opinion, he has obtained in money by buying companies when they are on hard times for a tenth of what they are worth. He presents a good fatherly image though by sucking on Popsicles and playing the Ukilayle. He is a corporate raider, the farther he stays from the issue the better.
    Bill gates, I won’t even bother with, he has become goofy with age and wealth.

    NASA, Navy, SPAWAR and NATO have all been linked to the technology, but they don’t want it in the open, they want it hidden for their use, in my opinion. The DOE conveniently is ignoring it, it doesn’t fit their agenda and would help society free themselves from control. 29.5 Billion in DOE funding for the next year and Zero for LENR. Enough said!

    To me it all adds up to a few private groups, working hard on a shoestring to launch an energy revolution. Most everything is done that way, they don’t have vested interests to protect.
    Rant over!

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Rossi doesn’t have a major partner, major company, venture capitalist, or both. Raytheon isn’t known for getting involved in consumer appliances but they have been close to SPAWAR, DARPA, and NASA. United Technologies (UTX) is also close to all the above plus Carrier (HVAC), Pratt & Whitney (a/c & rocket engines, fuel cells, gas turbines), Sikorsky, and UTC Power (distributed power generation systems). UTX would seem a good fit except for Rossi’s low profit plan.

      • Bob Says:

        There were rumors of Kleiner-Perkins being involved, but I haven’t heard of them lately. You have a great list of companies that could be involved. I bet many are from Europe and Asia, so the list will be very interesting. We will be able to finally have them tip their hands as to interest.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Bob, it does feel like a global hand of poker. A couple of rubes fronting the effort with the masters all shifting beneath the table. And Iggy’s list is a nice one. Every one a contender; massive sharks swimming beneath the tension filled ocean; a frothy frenzy forthcoming.

      • Bob Says:

        Anony Mole, yes I think the big fishes are circling, I just want one to bite so we get blood in the water and a feeding frenzy starts.

    • psi Says:

      Nice rant, Bob.

  40. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Actually mine isn’t so much a list but a description of United Technologie’s divisions….which include Carrier (HVAC), Pratt & Whitney (a/c & rocket engines, fuel cells, gas turbines), Sikorsky, and UTC Power (distributed power generation systems).

  41. Bob Says:

    Iggy, there are sure a lot of companies that will have huge affects on their business. If Rossi produces 1Million home units and a handful of MW units the market will not be well served. Usually if their is a big market pull, big companies find ways to produce their own units. It will be interesting to see how long this takes. This will determine how quickly the market expands.
    Wish I wasn’t so lazy, it would be interesting to calculate how many millions of units need to be shipped to be the equivalent of 10% market.

  42. Bob Says:

    Rossi has stated that his home Unit designs are complete and gave a size of 12x12x4 with a weight of 20 lbs. The weight was a big surprise, you can’t have much lead in such a device.

  43. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    A strong suspect for an E-Cat need would be Whirlpool. They’re the low cost producer of home appliances and they make both water-heaters and HVAC.

  44. Bob Says:

    There were a couple of good posts today.

    A new name, A professor from Indiana!

  45. Anony Mole Says:

    Let’s look out 5 years or more. If we are to truly adopt and embrace LENR as viable we need to project out beyond the current focus on Rossi and Defkalion. These two minor players will, in all likelihood, cease to exist. The market is just too huge to think that either of these bit players will have an impact on the global energy transformation. To think that Rossi will some how corner the LENR market with his low price units to the point where no other manufacture need try and compete is delusional. So we must move beyond these two and look out to what might be in place in 5 years with regards to LENR commercialized production.

    The sampling of entities recently listed here (China, Japan, Royal Dutch Shell, United Technologies, Raytheon, Whirlpool, DOE, DARPA and others) is just a subset of those that will enter the market in some form or another. Once the technology is stabilized hundreds of uses will be identified, each with their own cadre of manufacturers. Thousands of manufacturers serving every niche of energy usage imaginable. This is the direction we should be envisioning; the wide open expanse of possibilities, not the narrow, greed driven machinations of Rossi and DGT.

    In 5 years LENR will just be starting its true global boom. A billion cores delivered in 2017. Seven billion delivered in 2025. That’s the kind of world I want to live in. An entire planet adopting a new energy source. No one single first mover is going to control all that.

    I reiterate: LENR represents a new energy frontier. A frontier open to countless entrepreneurs, farmers, ranchers, shopkeepers, barbers, bankers, manufacturers, engineers, and businesspeople of all types. That is what defines a frontier – no limits; the sky’s the limit. Actually no, the sky will not be a limit either.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – the main reason for others getting in to the business will be shortage of supply. One million will not scratch the surface of demand. Note that Rossi’s home devices are said by him to have a COP of around 6 and to heat water up to maybe 80°C (latest data posted by Bob at 8:34am). They will be useful only in central heating systems unless Powerchip get their technology sorted. With a COP of 6 coupled with the difference in price of electricity and natural gas, quite a lot of people may not see enough of a financial benefit in changing to a Rossi device. Defkalion’s device with a COP > 20 and higher operating temperature may well be effectively competitive at three times the cost for the device itself. Cost of the device isn’t everything, cost/benefit analysis is needed as well. There is also the cost of integrating it into your home heating system.

      The market will remain wide-open for better and cheaper versions, and they will start to be developed once either Rossi’s or Defkalion’s devices start to sell. Unfortunately, newcomers will need to find out how to make them and do their research and development, and that has so far taken much longer than the 5 years you predict for a glut of them to be on the market. I suspect that, even if you did buy a Defkalion device and defeated the anti-tamper device, you would still have a lot of work in order to find out the precise manufacturing process. Noting the problems both Defkalion and Rossi have had in scaling up, the processing of the core material is not a trivial problem.

      So, my bet is that about 2-4 years after a working LENR device comes on the market, we may see competitors start up manufacturing. Unless you’re at the front of the queue, it will be at least another couple of years before you can buy one. An earlier bet was that the front of the queue for Defkalion is still 18 months away, and Rossi a bit later.

      Bottom line is: add at least 5 years to your estimate for multiple suppliers, and maybe another 15 years to ubiquity. This may be shortened if another easier method of LENR comes to market instead.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        “Rossi’s home devices are said by him to have a COP of around 6 and to heat water up to maybe 80°C (latest data posted by Bob at 8:34am).”

        How do you suppose Rossi can offer an optional steam driven heat-pump at only 80°C? Maybe with CO2 or with heat absorption or adsorption.

        If Rossi can pull that off, he would have quite a formidable product.

        He could bump another inventor’s name from the sales charts , Carrier.

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy, when I read that I was amazed. Another check mark for the extraordinary claims column.
        I see nothing in Siemens products that would allow this. Of coarse there is always the unpublished products!

      • brucefast Says:

        Iggy, could it be that Rossi is making a nice, safe, easy to pass UL model for home heat, but is pursuing something quite different in his R&D?

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Yes but Rossi reiterated yesterday about the heatpump option on the home E-Cat.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        How ’bout an Einstein Refrigerator?

        “Because it has no moving parts, you could make one that would last a hundred years without any kind of maintenance.”

        Now I want a walk-in cooler.

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy, that is a great find. With LENR this type of technology could be used for air conditioners as well.
        I think I will see if I can find the patents.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        From Bob’s 8:34am post, it looks like Rossi is making the 80°C device for home use, and a hotter one for generating electricity. It looks like he thinks the 80°C one will be easier to get approvals on. He’s effectively stating that getting higher temperatures is more problematical with his design.

        Ammonia-based refrigeration, where the property that when ammonia dissolves in water it absorbs heat, and then heating the solution boils the ammonia out, has been used in refrigerators for a long time – we had one when I was a kid. It’s also the basis of the “ice ball” type of cooler. With the advent of Freon, they dropped out of manufacture because the new ones were smaller and more powerful (and more efficient). I don’t know what the addition of butane does to the efficiency rating.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Yep, I think most of the old commercial ice houses used ammonia. Einstein claimed his was better because it had no seals to leak. Here’s the patent:

        There is also an aDsorption cooler that uses a gel for the phase change.
        Key Benefits

        Water used as refrigerant,
        No freons (CFC’s)
        No Li-Br
        No ammonia
        No corrosion
        No hazardous leaks
        No chemical testing
        No replacement
        No compressor, which means;
        No alignment
        No high voltage
        No high pressure
        No overhaul
        No oil change
        No surging
        No vibration or noise.
        Stable chilled water output 3°C to 9°C
        Driven by a wide hot water temperature range 90°C to 50°C
        Stable operation, even with the fluctuating hot water temperatures and flow rates that are normal in waste heat recovery applications. No back-up burner required.
        Simple and short start-up & shutdown time
        Constant operation – 24 hours, 7 days a week.

        Energy Efficient

        C.O.P. up to 0.75 using only hot water
        < 1000 Watts of electricity used on 3 MW chiller
        Optimized to use;
        Engine jacket water
        Turbine condensate
        Flue exhaust heat
        Excess steam
        Two operating modes – Standard & Economy
        Preserves process steam
        Steady cooling output even with highly varying heat inputs
        1-3 year pay-back period
        Sub-zero systems also available

      • Bob Says:

        Great information, thanks for posting!

      • Anony Mole Says:

        “Mosquito Coast” w/ Harrison Ford was about such a refrigeration system. The actor wanted to bring ice to the local natives. It didn’t end well, but it was a pretty cool contraption. (forgive the pun).

      • Anony Mole Says:

        So a LENR reactor driving steam into a Tesla turbine who’s residual heat then powers an Einstein refrigerator. Heat, electricity and cooling all from a single device… I’ll take twenty. When can I take delivery?

    • Bob Says:

      Anony, The market will be so big that Rossi will only serve a small portion of the demand, like Simon said. US law does not allow anyone to monopolize and industry. Companies will license the rights to manufacture, but many of these negotiations will break down and the companies will just manufacture anyway and Rossi will take them to court (assuming he gets a patent) and the judge and lawyers will work out a penalty and royalty agreements and business will continue as usual.

      Many companies enter markets that are patent protected, assuming they will lose in court, but they will get a license and will have a shot at the business. This has worked quite well over the years.

      Historically the first to market has not been the most successful. Look at IBM and the PC market. Motorola and cell phones. The list is long!
      Many time an innovative group or company with good R&D will come out with a good product, but they aren’t the best at manufacturing. In the long run, they make a ton of money and move on to the next invention. Samsung used to be a typical company that didn’t innovate, but would enter after the first phase and beat everyone on price.
      Patent law only guarantees that you will get royalties as you can’t prevent people from manufacturing. Everyone has a right to make things.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        “Patent law only guarantees that you will get royalties as you can’t prevent people from manufacturing. Everyone has a right to make things.”

        Try manufacturing a patented drug without a license.

      • Bob Says:

        Drugs are a special case because it takes FDA approval to go on the market. They wont even look at you unless your licensed as they don’t want to facilitate a legal issue. That’s not to say they couldn’t with a policy change.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Case in point that in order to adopt LENR as the new energy frontier, and that we must project our vision beyond such entities as AR and DGT, is ARs latest reply to the NyTeknik reporter, Mats Lewan, which you’ve no doubt read.

      Between “annihilating the competition”, maintaining the “secret to the last moment” to an “army of attorneys” it is obvious to me that AR has little understanding of what the true promise of LENR encompasses. Yes, yes, I fully acknowledge and respect the concept of intellectual property and patent rights. But the constant flaunting of said rights shows to me that AR has a very narrow view of what LENR is capable of. He reminds me of a petulant child who must continually proclaim this his private stash of secrets is his and his alone. Such comments certainly do not elicit the impression that AR is a noble, philanthropic individual who has embraced the world’s energy concerns.

      China, India, Indonesia, and Japan will doubtfully even blink when it comes to building the billions of LENR reactors with or without ARs blessing.

      Like Tom Hanks in Castaway: “FIRE! Look! I have made fire! (and I now own the patent on how it’s made and if you think you can make fire and not pay me a royalty you are a clown and I will loose my lawyers at you so that you will have to pay me what I deserve.)”

      • Bob Says:

        Rossi can not stop manufacturing of products, he will go to court, win and settle on royalties. In the long run, low cost and best Technology will win out. It may be that he will have an advantage for a number of years, but look out ten years and everything will be different. The technology will evolve and his fundamental patents may not be fundamental any more.
        Not to worry for Rossi, he will get obscenely rich and the wold will change way beyond his vision. Something this big will not be held back and will change things beyond imagination.
        We need just one working unit in the public’s hands to light this candle.

  46. Bob Says:

    Here is a link from the Vortex where they talk about another Over Unity device. I’m just amazed how many of these things that are out there. Sorta fun reading them, but most likely a waste of time.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Bob – this is another real Maxwell’s Demon. Currently they are talking about the odd 50mV excess voltage, and nanowatts of power. The problem is the forward-voltage of the diodes used and their frequency response. Like the experiment I quoted and Roger is going to do, it’s currently not useful. It does break the 2nd Law, though. To make it work better, we need a diode with a very small forward voltage (an ultra-schottky, in effect). File 1 on my site, if you are getting into fab, would produce far more energy. Air has a much higher energy density than electron gas.

      Note that a thermocouple also breaks 2nd Law. I know it is specified as hot junction and cold junction, but we actually use it as hot junction only and use a cold-junction compensator chip to take away the appropriate millivolts. If you put enough in series you get a useful voltage, and enough in parallel gives you a reasonable current. So by careful fabrication in layers of hot junctions, you can generate power from temperature anyway. This may possibly be done using electroplating, but sputtering would probably be better.

      • Bob Says:

        Simon, I appreciate your comments. While not a commercial probability it is interesting in the whole scope of zero point energy. MIT just announced another over Unity device

        It appears there are so many ways to achieve this, just need to find ways to commercial success. I am also convinced that many of the devices labeled as scams are really energy affects that are not understood and not repeatable. Different people keep finding the same thing over and over. For example,

        are examples of devices similar to the South African Device (SAD). I guess Ronald Reagen said it best, “there is a pony in there somewhere”.

        Then again I’m a dreamer and it may all be scams. ??

      • brucefast Says:

        So is there a possibility that the second law will be moved out of science class and into history class? When was the last time a “law” was dethroned?

      • Bob Says:

        Bruce, maybe the 2nd law should be changed to a guideline and not a low. It sure seems to have a lot of apparent exceptions.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bob – the first link (from MIT!) is again not currently much use yet except as yet another proof that the 2nd Law can be broken. That makes me feel somewhat vindicated, anyway. Maybe with development something could come of this, but basically it seems to be an LED that is emitting more light than the power it is consuming.

        The second and third links point to some lead-acid batteries maybe undergoing LENR when pulsed with spikes of charging power. So maybe the SAD may not be total scam and there really is a pony. These things do keep turning up, but so far I haven’t seen even one in production. Maybe only certain batteries work? Since the high-current charge would tend to flake off the lead oxide and shorten the life of the batteries, they would need to be replaced and maybe the replacement would not work so the whole system fails.

        I’ve put up file 13 dealing with the spikes. File 14 is an idea inspired by your Tesla file, since I finally got to the end of it. Again I can’t see where any energy comes from (as with any Tesla device), but I can measure the initial parameters anyway. It might just work and surprise me.

        1: These various “free energy” devices keep on coming up, some reach patent stage, people invest a lot of money and, more importantly, years of effort in getting them running.
        2: We hear of it after it has been developed and just needs a bit more development before solving the world’s energy problems.
        3 Things go quiet and we don’t hear any more. Other experimenters, using the published data, get nowhere. If they did we’d certainly hear about it.
        4: Quite a lot of the people who do it seem to be upstanding people, but mainly engineers rather than scientists. They produce such weird explanations of how their device works that scientists don’t bother looking at them.

        Add all these together and you’ve either got a load of scams or that quite a few people have seen something real happening but can’t repeat it in manufacturing. This also applies to LENR at the moment. We need a lot of people attempting to replicate these things, but they do need to know physics to a reasonable level but also to be open-minded to catch those unexpected results.

        Maybe we’ll catch the pony this year.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – I’m a heretic for saying 2nd Law doesn’t always work, but it does seem a lot more people are saying the same. It does work for any system that deals with normal human-sized quantities of substance. It fails if it tries to describe what happens to individual particles. So as with a few other physics laws, it has its limits and you need to know them before using it. I think it will probably remain a law, but maybe in future its exceptions will be taught in school/college, too.

      • Bob Says:

        Simon, you stated the issues very well. I believe that some things just rise to the surface when enough science exists and enough people start thinking about a certain issue. I think that whatever Cold Fusion is fits into that category. The science is there to solve it and critical mass in minds working on it is present, it will be solved.
        Years ago a guy could come up with an idea and be alone in the concept, today there is just to many people thinking about the same thing. Good ideas seem to spring up in parallel everywhere when the science reaches a certain point.

        Many things are interesting, but of little value. The run your car on water or Hydroxy I believe to be one of these areas. Its simple enough to play with that a lot of people will “hack” at doing things, but in the long run nothing will evolve of real value.

        I think there are many manifestations of Cold Fusion. Ni-H, Paladium-Duterium, cavitation, maybe noble gas engine or the SAD type of device. If you look under the hood of many of these technologies they all sort of point to some affect that can be triggered to create excess energy. We are just scratching the surface of what its all about. The affect is very complex, so engineering like Rossi and defkalion may get out ahead of the science through trial and error, but nothing solid will evolve until the why is known. I don’t think any of the present theories have nailed it, it may be a combination of several of them.
        To find the pony, someone has to have a breakthrough.

        Maybe I’m reading too much, but I am seeing a pattern to a lot things.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bob – The net enables people all over the world to think about things together. This is bound to improve the quality and the quantity of new ideas.

        The hydroxy (Brown’s Gas) generator running your car is a way of making a gas engine run on electricity, effectively. It may add a few percentage points to overall efficiency, too. The basic technology here is simple, but is surprisingly little-used in industry, maybe because of the reputation it has acquired in the “free energy” forums. It has it’s dangers, but is intrinsically safer than oxy-acetylene and cheaper to run, and the bottle doesn’t run out halfway through a weld. The raw materials are literally on-tap.

        LENR may well be behind a lot of anomalies seen by inventors and subsequently published as “free energy from the Aether” type of devices. Since we have seen in the P+F types of experiment that the exact surface conditions are both critical and not well-understood, it’s maybe not surprising that an experimenter gets one working after years of trying, but when he tries to mass-produce or even just show it to other people it just doesn’t work.

        The W-L theory does, as far as I see it, give a nice explanation of one way of producing thermal neutrons. The gamma-ray absorption, on the other hand, does not quite ring true and I think this bit of it needs to be re-thought. Once someone gets a repeatable reaction that can be properly studied, the theory as to why it happens may turn up. If this new theory is close to being right, it will give us ways to make the reaction happen even more controllably. I think there could be a while to wait before theory catches up properly.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        I really and truly hope this isn’t going to turn into another “zero point energy works because the Second Law isn’t completely valid and I’ve made this machine and it just needs one teensy-weensy adjustment to scale it up to industrial level power output then it’ll revolutionise the world so I’m looking for some Angel Investors with risk capital and we’ll get rich through my multi-level marketing licensing programme … ” type of blog?

        Because that sort of stuff is likely to bring LENR research generally into complete disrepute. Byron’s touting PowerPoint Rossi e-cat stuff to meetings of outback Australian sheep herders while maintaining a site devoted to the wonders of free Cosmic Energy, zero point gravity or whatever other nonsense has delivered a fatal wound to Rossi’s credibility. LENR research needs to keep itself separate both from Rossi, and from the even more obvious Patterson, Brillouin, Blacklight and South African Device absurdities if it is ever to get anywhere. Not that I’m convinced it ever will get anywhere – but give it a chance!

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Craig – if and when I produce such a machine, it will work if it is built correctly. That means I won’t be looking for angel investors, but a good manufacturer with decent quality control. After that, if you wish to buy one and use it in your home, you can personally see if it works or not. If you don’t buy it because you believe it can’t work, I won’t be bothered since most people will believe their power bill rather than theory. I’ll sell enough.

        The Second Law of Thermodynamics is not completely valid – read for a mathematics-based proof of this. It is obvious anyway from Newton’s laws of motion, if you put some of your own time into thinking about it rather than reading Wiki. I do not think that “zero-point energy” can be used – it’s obvious from the name really, since so far at least negative energy has never been measured.

        In my work as Failure Analyst, I looked for differences between what I thought should happen and what my measurements told me were happening. This attention to detail saved my company literally millions of dollars. Anomalies are important. They are the basis of advances in science in general, between periods of (basically boring) more precise measurements of what think we already know. When the measurements are accurate enough, and the anomaly remains, then something that we don’t understand yet is happening. It could be gold or it could be a fault in the measurements (see the recent Neutrino problem).

        Sorting out the pure scams from the list of “free energy” devices is not a trivial task. Look at the people who are doing it, and what they gain from it. There are a number where no gain motive is visible, so are they simply deluded? Are they just cranks? Are their measurements false? At the end you have a small set of possibly real effects that people have not been able to mass-manufacture. Investigating these is a worthy task, and may well lead to both a better understanding and a device that everyone can benefit from.

        Bruce’s stated aim in this blog is to advance our knowledge of LENR and to discuss its uses, benefits and problems. I think my posts add rather than detract, and comments by others are also helping me in my understanding. If I ask you for money then you need to be convinced it is a sound idea, but I’m not asking you or anyone else for funds.

        LENR research is and will remain tied to Rossi, Defkalion, BLP Brillouin etc., whether you approve or not. NASA are also doing their stuff, although SPAWAR are now unfortunately stopped. I would expect various other countries are also pursuing research under the radar – maybe we’ll first hear about that when they start manufacture. Disrepute fades away if you can buy one and it saves you money on the power bill.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        Simon, very true. Disrepute fades away if you can buy one. I promise that in these improbable circumstances I will hold Sterling Allen and the SAD in the highest esteem!

        But we can’t buy one. We can invest in licences, and multi-level marketing etc etc, but we sure as hell CAN’T BUY ONE!

        That’s the very heart of my problem with them.

        You understand this very well, and you have expressed it beautifully in the “4 points” in your post of Feb 28, 3:29 pm. What you describe will go on for ever and ever, as long as there are suckers with cash in the world. I say again: LENR research must be kept separate from this sort of nonsense, which is mere lunacy or fraud.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Craig – well put, and I hope we can all buy one soon. I may still not hold Sterling Allan in the highest regard, but I think he is honest if a bit gullible. OK, a lot gullible. Read the small print on his website, though, and he does tell prospective investors to be very careful to see proof before parting with money (my paraphrase). I think that neither you nor I have enough money to go investing in them anyway.

        There is currently no hard evidence I’ve seen as to whether Defkalion or Rossi have actually taken money for licenses etc., but I nevertheless think that Rossi has and Defkalion haven’t. If you find hard evidence for either, please post it. There is a lot of evidence that other companies have taken a lot of money and are continuing to do so. Again, caveat emptor. It’s not my money, and it appears that no-one on this blog has invested either, skeptics that they are.

        Those 4 points seem to turn up again and again. There is thus some probability that at least some of them are real but, as with LENR, need specific circumstances to appear. What the inventor speculated as to the cause is not really relevant – orgone energy, zero-point energy, angels dancing in step, 4th dimension timewarp, luminiferous aether, gravity waves, deBroglie waves…. If the effect is real, then we should investigate it and find out how to do it at will rather than by chance.

        LENR research will by its nature have frauds and scams attached. Pretty well anything that offers such a major advance/benefit for people will. See various medical items such as eternal youth (cosmetics, pills and surgery), miracle cures for AIDS/blindness/erectile dysfunction (often evangelical churches), books on how to get rich (the author sells a lot of books, so gets rich), horoscope predictions/rune throwing/crystal gazing… etc.. There are a lot of people offering things they can’t deliver unless you believe; why should LENR be any different?

        You would like certainty. Unfortunately that’s in short supply. Those who were certain that man couldn’t fly, that atomic energy was not possible, that Man could never reach the Moon have been proved wrong. So within the welter of information that is LENR at the moment there is some important data hiding among the noise. It’s just a bit difficult to decide which is the optimum route to get to something that can be built and works. Your attitude of panning people because of perceived irregularities in their past or their greed for more money runs the risk of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It’s better to look at what they have done and try to decide what bit of it is correct, and which of their data you can reasonably rely on, and to build an overall picture of what is happening.

        One thing to bear in mind is that, at the bottom of all the complex maths in physics theory, if you keep asking “why” you end up with the answer of “because that’s how it is”. The really basic questions as to why energy is conserved or why quantum numbers are conserved, or why Pauli’s exclusion theory applies universe-wide, well, we just don’t know. That’s just the way it is.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        Simon, thank you for your post on the matter of Defkalion and the licence money. It’s not that I was selectively quoting my source; it more that my source was contradicting or misunderstanding the Ny Teknik article on which his own was based. I had not realised this until I checked back after reading your post.

        However, you will recall that one of the original arguments for Rossi’s integrity was that nobody could work out how he would profit if he was a swindler. But it now seems that he is indeed receiving money from others, so that defence fails. Whether similar developments will occur in the case of Defkalion remains to be seen.

      • brucefast Says:

        Maybe I should stay out of this thread as Simon and Craig do seem to be having a sensible dialog. A first with Craig.

        As far as being able to buy one, well, I surely want to. I don’t believe, however, that it needs to have utility, that it needs to produce a useful COP. If anyone can go out and buy an LENR kit, and make their own LENR device, then the cat will be way out of the bag.

        The “published in peer reviewed journals” standard has proven to be a canard. Look, feel, touch, measure is what is needed to kill skepticism.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – you can buy the kits for Pd/D ( and they seem to have done some updates on site – it’s not moribund. I’ve posted this before with the caveat that I don’t know this site is good. This is not really useful – yes you can demonstrate a slight excess of neutrons and gammas over ambient and it will generate a little bit of excess heat. It won’t keep you warm or reduce your heating bill – it’s only for interest.

        You need and I need something that has a good enough COP (over 20) that we don’t need to use sensitive calorimetry to prove it works. I want to make a cup of coffee using 10W input power – that’s good enough. You need something that produces enough power to heat your Yukon home. If it’s not that good, it’s only of academic interest until it is. So yes, I want to touch one, maybe make breakfast on one before I’ll be happy that it’s absolutely real. The published papers only tell me that it can be done, and I want one now. As Craig said (in capitals) you can’t buy one now. That is annoying, so I’m working on it.

      • brucefast Says:

        Simon, your link isn’t working for me. Its sending me to “zencart”.

        Simon, “You need and I need something that has a good enough COP (over 20) that we don’t need to use sensitive calorimetry to prove it works.”

        Getting the idiot scientific community past “pathological science” should be easily possible with a device producing a COP of 1.1. Once the scientific community gets out of its drunken stupor, the R&D money will flow, even in these difficult economic times.

        Further, have you seen my new post? Someone is producing measurable transmutation from carbon to iron using a microwave oven. Their technique is fully defined — no “majic powder”, no attempt to make money off of it.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – look more carefully at it. They haven’t personalised the site, just added to it. Pretty sloppy, but at the time I looked it said 2 others were browsing the site. The kits are both sold out (last time the larger kit was still for sale) but it appears the various bits you need are still being sold. Not the sort of site I’d normally go buy from, but these sorts of bits are kind of hard to source from a normal supplier. Expect a COP of maybe 1.3 maximum from this type of kit.

        Yes, I saw the new post after I’d commented on Iggy’s post of the video. Using a microwave is a good idea, but if it had transmuted then it would have melted the microwave and the camera and the guy holding it. That would output megawatt-hours of power in 3 minutes flat. The odd 20MW or so coming out of the microwave. Not believable.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Sorry, I didn’t address the other point about the idiot scientific community. Ed Storms has students doing LENR (P+F method but co-deposition) and getting results. You can buy the kits and do it yourself. NASA have admitted they duplicated P+F within a few months and have received patents on it. MIT have “cold fusion 101″ classes – not compulsory to the course, but there. Mitchell Swartz has been running a Stirling engine from one. SPAWAR have been doing superb science on this pretty well from the get-go, and though they have been stopped from working now they have a load of papers published.

        If scientists cannot sit up and take notice with that amount of evidence, we’ll just have to wait for them to die and let the new generation take over. The other way of doing it would be to generate believable reports that China is getting real close to having one working. That may after all be true. In the same way that Russia’s Sputnik and Yuri Gagarin spurred Kennedy to start the race to get to the Moon first, some similar spur needs to be applied to the West’s politicians to get a working technology first. If we have to buy it from China, things will not be as easy for us as they have been in this current depression.

  47. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Free Webinar


    Quantum Man: Richard Feynman’s life in science

    Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012
    Time: 4.00 p.m GMT / 11.00 am EDT

    It took a man who was willing to break all the rules to tame a theory that breaks all the rules. This lecture will be based on Lawrence M Krauss’ new book Quantum Man: Richard Feynman’s Life in Science. Krauss will present a scientific overview of the contributions of Feynman, as seen through the arc of his fascinating life.

    From quantum mechanics to antiparticles and from Rio de Janeiro to Los Alamos, a whirlwind tour will provide insights into the character, life and accomplishments of one of the 20th century’s most important scientists, as well as an object lesson in scientific integrity.

    The webinar will run for approximately 45 minutes with time for a Q&A at the end.

  48. Simon Derricutt Says:

    If anybody wishes to read it, I did suggest some alterations of design to Rossi last year. Although at that time I’d only been aware of the E-cat for less than a week, I’d done a lot of study in that time. They are at and one a couple above at .

    In the light of what I know now, it’s obvious that he wasn’t going to listen, but I’ve also seen no reason to change my opinion on the benefits of these changes. They could solve his startup/control problem, his heat transfer problem and also make it possible to scale up the reactor size while getting a better COP. Foils are also much safer to handle than nanopowders, too.

    Has anyone else got any technical improvements that would be worth adding?

    • Anony Mole Says:

      I don’t quite follow your layout of foil assembly, but reading your comments and envisioning the structure of electrolytic capacitors, foil sheets separated by insulating layers, wound in a spiral, could such a pattern simplify construction? You’re trying to get as much surface area as possible with the foil and crinkles no? With the doping of the nickel with the catalyst (tungsten?) and the use of some corrugated channeled material as the insulation layer to allow the passage of hydrogen perhaps the concept of elect.caps might prove another avenue to follow.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – yes a foil wrapped like a capacitor would certainly work, though the corrugations would tend to sit in each other unless a clever embossing method was used. We’d need either a very asymmetrical or a non-repeating pattern of dots to keep the separation. The problem would again be getting the heat out of it quickly enough to stop local overheating. There would be ways round this, using an inert core former, but the space-saving from using a wrap would then tend to disappear, I think. It would be much easier to make, though, so would be a benefit anyway. We don’t need to worry too much about the size of the machine.

      The crinkles are there to make sure that there are gaps between where the foil is in contact. These gaps should allow bigger plasmons (SPPs) to exist than if everything were in contact. Bigger plasmons = more energy available, so more probability of reaction.

      I’m not sure why people keep picking on Tungsten to aid the reaction. In fission devices, Boron is used to slow down neutrons and thus make the reaction more efficient, and I suspect it would do the same here. So maybe some Borax in the core? Basically anything light, even Lithium.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Simon, similar to your foil idea, ecatplanet discusses using sheets, perforated with nano-holes, rolled up into tight scrolls. It would be nickel with tungsten for high melt point.

      “Problem 2: Nickel has an intrinsic low temperature limit. Simply, it melts. For aerospace propulsion applications the highest temperatures are required, with the greatest thermal energy output per unit mass of catalyst and fuel.
      Solution 2: If a long sheet with nano-holes, of a transition metal
      with a higher melting point, and more rigid lattice with the proper crystal configuration, were rolled into a rod shape, it might be possible to use LENR in a rocket engine configuration like that of the MITEE.…t/510Maise.pdf
      “MITEE uses cermet fuel sheets instead of the packed beds of fuel particles employed in the PBR. The cermet fuel sheets consists of very small UO2 particles imbedded in a refractory metal matrix (e.g., tungsten).
      The cermet W/UO2 fuel was developed and tested in the 1960’s for the 710 nuclear engine program. It has excellent resistance to hydrogen at temperatures of up to at least 3000 K, exhibiting virtually no fuel loss for
      operating periods of hours and multiple thermal cycles. The cermet fuel has also demonstrated
      the capability to survive very rapid rates of temperature change of ~10,000 K per second. The
      MITEE fuel element consists of an annular roll of multiple cermet fuel sheets (e.g., ~20 sheets),
      rolled together to form the annular element. The inner diameter of the annulus is typically about 1
      centimeter, with an outer diameter of approximately 3 centimeters.”

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        “A cermet is a composite material composed of ceramic (cer) and metallic (met) materials. A cermet is ideally designed to have the optimal properties of both a ceramic, such as high temperature resistance and hardness, and those of a metal, such as the ability to undergo plastic deformation. The metal is used as a binder for an oxide, boride, or carbide. Generally, the metallic elements used are nickel, molybdenum, and cobalt. Depending on the physical structure of the material, cermets can also be metal matrix composites, but cermets are usually less than 20% metal by volume.”

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Thanks Iggy – an interesting set of ideas.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Another factor to consider with rolled up sheets, with nickel on one side of the sheet and the other side with metal hydride, that would put the hydride facing the nickel.

  49. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Very interesting Simon. You seem to have a good understanding of this phenomenon, at least better than most of us. Are you suggesting that Rossi use a single lead shield instead of the individual shields? Didn’t Rossi say that the lead shield converts gamma energy to thermal energy? So maybe you need the shielding adjacent to each individual water-jacket.

    Re your second suggestion about using foil: How would nickel foam work?

    Simon, are you trying to replicate?

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      1: yes
      2: yes
      3: yes
      4: no
      Warm regards, SMD

      I couldn’t resist that…. If he used the foil idea, then the spot-overheating problem would go away. This would also make the manufacturing of arrays much easier. Start-up involves getting the temperatures even through the powder – not easy. With foils the temperatures will naturally be more even. The lead shielding cannot absorb much of the gamma rays – it’s only about 3mm thick. So put it round the outside – it won’t heat up very much. There aren’t many gammas produced in LENR for a currently unknown reason – on this I’m not happy with the W-L theory.

      I think Nickel foam would not work – the cavities are not the right shape. Possibly if you compressed it it might, but the degree of compression would probably be critical. Hence the foil idea. It’s also cheaper and can be produced by plating with the corrugations already there.

      Yes, I’m making one, but not using Nickel at first. So it’s not a replication as such. If Rossi won’t listen, I have to prove it myself. Sounds a bit arrogant maybe, but I’ve got the time to do it and it’s not expensive. First run maybe this month.

  50. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    On distributing the heat and the hydrogen, could you have jets blow the hydrogen from the bottom of the reactor, up through the powder…like a fluidized bed of coal? Or alternatively, have the entire reactor tumble or vibrate….or perhaps use ultrasonic agitation?

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – The powder is pretty hard to blow through because it’s nanopowder – very small gaps and it looks like it is compressed into the cartridge. Heat transfer through such a powder is difficult, so any reactive point is going to have a hot-spot round it that also therefore has a higher likelihood of getting another reaction. I think the reaction rate is going to be related to the square or cube of the absolute temperature, so this is why the temperature needs to be within a narrow range. It won’t happen below the Debye temperature (if Piantelli is correct).

      Your fluidised bed might help, though, since this would certainly transfer the heat around. The problem I can see is that the particles of Nickel would probably not come into close enough contact. It would be worth trying, though, and maybe using larger grain size would make closer contact possible. In this case, ultrasonics would also help in getting the particles close enough together for long enough.
      For your idea, the heat transfer would be pretty well solely through the Hydrogen, so we’d need a pump for it. The pump would need to run at the reactor temperature, be resistant to Hydrogen embrittlement (made of Copper or brass, maybe) and supply enough flow-rate to absorb all the heat and keep the Nickel powder fluidised.

      This implies also a Hydrogen-resistant heat-exchanger and a lot more Hydrogen than current designs. It’s a bit more complex. Maybe would work better on a large-scale design, though I can think of ways of getting it running home-sized (but not cheaply).

      One advantage of a fluidised bed approach is that excitation by sparks/plasma/microwaves would be much easier.

      I think this idea might well be better than Rossi’s or Defkalion’s. It neatly solves the problem of keeping the temperature constant enough in microlocalities that the running temperature could possibly be pushed up to maybe 750°C.

      I wonder if Rossi or Defkalion read this blog?

      • Bob Says:

        Just a word of warning, you can’t patent what you disclose. I know your not being very specific, but courts can be funny about things. All very interesting though!

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bob – I’m not intending to use Nickel powder anyway, and I haven’t disclosed the main modification I’m making to the method. It is interesting though what improvements could be incorporated by making the whole thing open-source. That really is a good idea from Iggy, and multiply this by a few hundred at least for a good worldwide cooperation.

        If anyone tries this and find it works better, then I’ll be pretty happy, and I expect Iggy will be too. Most of the ideas we need have already been tested in something else; having a lot of different life-experiences means that someone will probably have the solution we need, but they are a plumber, electrician or road-sweeper who would otherwise not be listened to. Of course, you’d get a lot of totally useless ideas, too. The terrible ones are easy to sort, but it’s the ones that need a bit more polishing that take more time. Again, put it on the blog and see what everyone thinks.

        Sometimes, democracy can actually work.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        One other thing I should have said: at the end of all this creative thinking and logical problem-solving, someone has to get into the workshop and physically make and test something. There’s not much point unless that happens.

        Currently I can’t think of a way of collecting ideas and seed-money to make things that is not wide-open to fraud if we tried to do it on a world-wide scale. The current method of small start-ups with a bright idea that may or may not really work in practice, funded by whatever means, seems to be one that works, but it does not capitalise on the input from thousands of interested participants. Open-source can deliver (see Linux) but is inherently unfair on the people who do the work for free.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        That’s my failing. I’ve never been a ‘hands on’ guy.

        Suggestion for your device’s name: FUDNOT

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – a wonderful name for it. Thanks.

  51. Anony Mole Says:

    [Posted on another forum – but copied here for consistency of story]

    I don’t know a single forum member, on any forum, who is not conflicted on this subject.

    There are so many “hands” we’re dealing with here:

    • On the one hand, we all hope LENR is capable of producing kWs of excess heat energy, can be commercialized, and can be adapted to any and every energy need on the planet.

    • On the other hand, few believe Rossi to have behaved in an honest and forthright fashion. With the world on the edge of an energy depletion precipice, such shrew like and seemingly avaricious behavior regarding a solution to help salve the world’s ailments is contemptible.

    • On the other hand, the history of LENR, i.e. Cold Confusion, is such that any positive, productive results would be scoffed at, disbelieved, yet at the same time coveted. The need to retain privacy and secrecy in a world of vast industrial, financial, governmental and military power – all seeking to control the very thing you’ve created, would be an absolute necessity.

    • On the other hand, in this day and age of instant information dispersal, publicly announcing, demonstrating and sharing such a device would guarantee the creator instant notoriety and confirmation. Followed immediately with exaltation, wealth, and honor. The world would embrace and celebrate them. To forgo such recognition in lieu of attempting to covertly corner the market, is again, contemptible.

    • On the other hand, such a simple and effective device will quickly blossom within the manufacturing complex of the world and make thousands of first movers billionaires. To want to ensure one’s slice of this massive new wealth generator is only human, greedy, self serving, but human.

    • On the other hand, ah, who gives a crap about the other hand – FREE LENR NOW!

  52. Anony Mole Says:


    Paul over at ecatnews has pointed out George Miley et al’s success, as of mid-2011, in using ZnOPd to produce excess heat via D2 gas loading. Miley’s cell is so simple (in design if not in manufacture), and the fact that he and his team produced the documents mentioned on Paul’s site 9 months ago, and that the slide presentation mentions their intention of focusing on optimizing the materials, control, etc. that… one might assume a substantial LENR breakthrough is on the cusp. The fact that Miley is completely open with his prior research bodes well for what he will be discussing end of March. Meaning, whatever enhancements he’s made may come out in his talk. If other teams are poised to announce positive results (Missouri, SRI, Israel) this whole thing may crack open and go viral in the next few weeks (hopefully) or months. I can feel the pressure building…

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – thanks for the two posts. On this one it will be good to have a straightforward exposition of what happened without the obfuscation from Defkalion and Rossi.

      I agree with most of the 10:19am post, and especially liked the term “Cold Confusion” – a nice description. I’m not certain, though, that publishing exactly how to make one will necessarily earn the inventor a lot of money. Kudos, yes. Maybe some people would donate enough to earn the inventor a living, but I feel that the people who made the devices to sell them would not necessarily feel obliged to give any of their profits away unless they were forced to. If they did, it would only be in Europe and the States – those who made and sold elsewhere would feel absolutely no urge to join in the donation spree. For example, China, India, Russia, the Middle East, Australia…. It would, however, be a good thing to do for its own sake and to stop the inexorable slide into financial depression we currently see here.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Oh, I’m not (too) naive with regards to the fact that wealth might not arrive on such a person’s doorstep. I think such a person could convert some of the kudos into money (book, interviews, movie rights, spokesperson…) but, you’re right, direct wealth from the production of LENR reactors would probably not be forthcoming (unless they could become one of the first movers).

        You’ve mentioned Linux up above, and open source software in general, that’s it exactly. The true drivers of those projects are rarely rewarded to the degree that they probably deserve. It is a personal choice to volunteer such time and effort. I’ve donated hundreds of hours of code to open source efforts myself. Others would rather try and scratch a few dollars from such effort. In my heart I believe it accurately signifies the type of person one is inside – donate to the greater good or try and make a buck.

        What also came to mind was PARC, those ground braking dudes in Palo Alto who dreamed up the computer mouse, graphical interfaces, the ethernet, laser printers, etc. They doubtfully became rich from such inventions. Although there were probably patents registered for those inventions so somebody probably became wealthy, just not the inventors – most likely Xerox.

        With these efforts starting to tumble from the woodshed, maybe we’ll get to hear about some Asia based teams striking paydirt. (And it was only that I read about tungsten someplace that I figured I’d slip that in up there… Lithium is cheap and common, my wife takes it every day, thank god!)

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – I used to work for Xerox UK, and as far as I know no-one from PARC (or Xerox itself) actually made any money from either the mouse or the GUI. I’m still absurdly proud of it, though. It’s still a hotbed of new technology, and though only a few things make it to the market (electronic paper as used in the Kindle comes to mind) they still keep dreaming up wild ideas and making them work. If I get something running, there’s a chance that they’ll still remember me and thus look at it. Xerox quality control is very good (maybe the best) but they were always a bit slow in getting from design to manufacture.

        Open source may be the only reasonable route to getting LENR into manufacture quickly, since that puts the various companies in competition to get to the market early – everyone has the same information. First to market gets higher prices and more profit. Shame about massive profits not going to the inventor, though.

  53. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    NextBigFuture Current Position On LENR

    • brucefast Says:

      I think that NextBigFuture’s view of the whole thing is very mature. There really aren’t two categories: angel and scam. Sometimes things just go difficult.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Yes, I thought this was a good short article. I’ve looked at the others (Brillouin, BLP etc.) and thought that they could work and that probably they have seen encouraging results that make them keep on working at it as long as they can keep getting venture capital. One of these days they may surprise us and actually come out with a product.

      Categories Angel, Scam, Deluded, Nearly There But Not Quite Yet?

      • Craig Binns Says:

        Simon, No. Your first three categories are all founded on psychology. They are descriptive of states of mind. I can pass from being one to being another REGARDLESS OF THE REAL NATURE OF PHYSICAL REALITY. “Nearly but not quite there yet” contains an assumption about the nature of reality (i.e. there exists a “there” available to be attained) and it must therefore be distinguished from the others. You have inadvertently fallen into a “category confusion”.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Craig – tell me more. Maybe I didn’t define them first:
        Angel – Honest, has something that works, will manufacture (may well have delays before manufacture begins).
        Scam – Dishonest, pretending that something works, takes money for no result.
        Deluded – Honest, thinking that something works, cannot deliver a working item.
        Nearly There – Honest, has something that almost works, may deliver sometime (but don’t hold your breath).

        I don’t see a confusion there or any psychological inferences. State of mind is is either honest or dishonest. Reality intrudes on all of them. Most “free energy” devices seem to me to fall into categories 2 and 3. I’d tentatively place Defkalion in 1 and Rossi in 4, but currently there is not enough real information to be definitive. Defkalion may be in 2 and Rossi in 3 or vice-versa…. Honest in this case is purely saying whether they themselves believe they have something that works, and has nothing to do with whether they will take your money (and maybe lose it) or not.

        In Aristotelian fashion, I could subdivide each category further and further, but it doesn’t really win us anything to do that. The KISS principle is often better.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        Simon, I didn’t say psychological inferences. I said assumptions about the nature of reality. That is a very different thing. Your category 4 contains one. Nearly there? Nearly where? Is there a place to be nearly at? That is the assumption.

        It’s as if I were to say: this evening I may decide to go to the pub, or go to the cinema, or I may do some calculations at home AND discover THAT gravity waves exist. The first two of these I can do, as I please. The last I can do ONLY IF such waves in fact exist. And I can “nearly find them” likewise only if they exist. If in fact they don’t, I will always be at an infinite distance from finding them, no matter what I choose to do.

        So the last choice has different conditions of fulfilment from the others. If you were to say: make calculations TO find out IF they exist, that would be fine, because I can do that if I want without prior assumptions about the nature of reality. That my reality contains the pub and the cinema I already know, so the fact that “reality intrudes on all of them” is no problem, as long as the reality is known in advance, which of course it isn’t in the third case mentioned above.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        A rather entertaining exercise in logic here.

        Could it be said that you, CB, believe that a destination be previously known in order to position oneself “nearly there”? Otherwise the concept of “nearly” would remain so nebulous as to be effectively useless as a term of locality. If you don’t know where you’re going, how do you know when you’re nearly there?

        However, I think, as we are dealing in human terms here, that the term “nearly” can be extrapolated using prior work done and projecting into the future a probable completion curve. And that this term can be accepted as reasonable under these conditions. Yes the curve may take a sudden and unexpected turn to the asymptotic, hanging us forever in the state of “nearly there.” But, in human terms, I would still say that we can accept, given the results of previous effort accomplished, that “nearly there” is a valid humanly acceptable term.

        Now, the application of the term “nearly” as used in science is no doubt frowned upon. And although this looks like a purely scientific endeavor I’d have to state that there is so much qualitative and emotive tension caught up in this discussion that if we could get the admission of an honest team (i.e. G. Miley) that they were “nearly” there with regards to producing kW of excess heat energy – that would be an OK use of the term.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Craig – you must have at least 50,000 hairs on your head (most people have 25K). That was a fine philosophical point there. You should meet my brother – he used to argue religion and politics in Glasgow pubs (and lived to tell me about it). However, I think Anony explained my view better than I could – I wasn’t being scientific enough in my use of words.

        You win the point, there. However, in order to argue it, you must have understood what I meant. Maybe it would have been better if I had said “they think they are nearly there”. Wherever there is….

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        On further thought about these fine points, it occurs to me that there’s not really much difference between “Nearly There” and “Deluded”. Again there’s not much between “Angel” and “Nearly There” either. It depends on your viewpoint as to which pigeonhole to put them in.

        We may conclude someone is “Deluded” if the explanation they give for their device goes against what we understand about the way things work. They may have understood more than we know and be a short step away from having a good result, thus promotion to “Nearly There” or “Angel” if they are lucky. We may think someone is “Nearly There” for a long time, and may give up on them. Get that one step right, however, and he/she/it is promoted to angelhood.

        I also hold to Roger’s belief that the Laws of Physics are actually just patterns. I’ve seen those patterns change a few times. New understandings of the patterns bring new opportunities. It’s good to know all the historical definitions and it’s not a good idea to throw them out too quickly, but likewise it’s useful to use doublethink. use the theory/idea/pattern that is correct for the case you are considering, even though it may conflict with one you’d use on another occasion. Fermi was supposed to have been really good at that.

      • brucefast Says:

        Craig, “The last I can do ONLY IF such waves in fact exist.”

        However, Craig, within the context of this discussion board, one must assume that you are referring to LENR. As such it is not Rossi nor Defkalion that carries the mantle of proof that LENR is valid. The group that does contain a bunch of scientists who have published their findings in the formal journals.

        Suggesting “nearly there” within the LENR context is not about suggesting that one has an LENR device, but that one has a device that produces a high COP which is “nearly” market ready.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        “Like a tunnel that you follow
        To a tunnel of it’s own
        Down a hollow to a cavern
        Where the sun has never shone
        Like a door that keeps revolving
        In a half forgotten dream
        Or the ripples from a pebble
        Someone tosses in a stream.”

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Poetry at such times is so refreshing. Thanks Iggy.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        from “The Windmills of Your Mind”

      • Craig Binns Says:

        Simon, you say: “You should meet my brother – he used to argue religion and politics in Glasgow pubs”. If he’s been doing this at any time in the last several decades, I almost certainly have indeed met your brother, since the only difference between us is that I still engage in that activity. Although it must be said that there’s many a pub in Glasgow, and arguments about religion and politics occur in most of them.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Craig – That was back in ’75 and ’76. He joined the Moonies there, so I expect you would have had fun exposing the illogicalities. I tried, but it’s hard to argue against belief and certainty. Surprisingly he’s still with them, though it’s now a different name. It seems to me you’d have great fun discussing things with a Scientologist, too.

        You have probably recognised that I am rarely certain – more of a Heisenbergian (new word). As I have learnt more I have continually realised how much more we don’t know. New ideas, such as LENR, interstellar drives (and other things from sci-fi), if they are backed by sufficient experimental evidence do not therefore undermine my worldview – I’m not threatened by them. They are just one more uncertain thing till we get something that really works.

        I’ll probably waste more time than you exploring whether crazy ideas really do work, but hey, it’s fun.

        When you knew that it was over
        Were you suddenly aware
        That the Autumn leaves were turning
        To the colour of her hair?

        A glimpse of satori, there. Sudden awareness of a new reality. That fits LENR, too.

  54. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I was introduced to Eva Cassidy only a few months before Jane died. I had befriended a cyber-lady-friend, TnGirl, a couple of years earlier. I only met TnGirl in the flesh once, in ‘o8. She was Miss Tennessee, 1974, and was just as beautiful in ’08. She gave me a ride in her red Porsche Carerra. In Sept ’09, Tngirl died from a brain tumor. One of her other cyber friends posted Eva’s “Tennessee Waltz”.

    Jane died 2 months later and yes, she was blonde. Jane lived 70 years, twice as long as Eva Cassidy. Tngirl was 53. TnGirl was in Methodist Hospital in Memphis getting diagnosed at the same time Steve Jobs was receiving a liver transplant in the same building.

    Eva died in ’96 at age 33.

  55. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    The Other Hyperion (the fission one) To Deploy At Savanna River.

    • Craig Binns Says:

      Yes, the other one. It has always interested me that the Defkalion people should choose a name for their product which had already been applied to a comparable (in the most general terms) device. Or at least a device with which they might conceivably in competition if their own is ever put on the market.

      The “other” Hyperion benefits from this fact, that the principles on which it is based are well understood. Nobody disputes the existence of fission.

  56. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    starring Michael Caine

  57. Simon Derricutt Says:

    I’ve been quoting Piantelli’s work as being maybe the best example that we can reasonably trust, but on ecatnews someone tagged as 123star has pointed out this paper: that I hadn’t seen. This basically says that Focardi’s work was flawed in his method of measurement of excess heat. While finding internal variations in temperature, this paper notes that the external temperature of the whole apparatus was consistent with the power being fed in. That means Focardi was probably fooled by a systematic error he didn’t take into account. This paper does not specify what the problem is, but they do have an idea. It’s amazing what adding an extra thermocouple or two can do. This is a well-written paper.

    This is the reason why I want something with a COP=20 or so, so that such experimental errors can be discounted. Errors in calorimetry, when you are dealing with small amounts of heat, are very hard to avoid and very easy to challenge. Once you reach twice the energy out that you put in, there’s less chance of error. When it’s 20x, no-one should be able to ignore it.

  58. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Planetary alignment, harmonic convergence, or just a new urban legend in the making? I just got a call to try to stand a broom up on its bristles. My broom had the bristles cut at an angle so I had to place the short bristles on the edge of a thick braided rug. It worked. It stood perfectly for 5 or 6 minutes until family gawkers jarred the floor causing it to fall. Actually, I think the broom caught a weak Craig-wave.

  59. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

  60. Bob Says:

  61. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Bruce – an alternate steam engine you can buy now: but it’s still somewhat beta. The idea is good, and they do air engines too. Mass-produced, this would be very much cheaper, and will use steam at 150°C. It could be a good match.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Like a shape-shifting Wankel

    • brucefast Says:

      Love it!
      We need to get one of these to Rossi so he doesn’t have to build up a 50Mw steam source to generate electricity. This seems a far more sensible way to go.

      Do remember, however, that the issue with the wankel was lubrication. I remember rotary Mazdas well. The engines were great except they needed a total rebuild every 20K miles or so.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        As I recall, the Wankel had problems with the apex seals and the side seals. My guess is the ‘Brash Engine’ would share the same problems.

        I still think the Cyclone is the best fit.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        Brucefast, “This seems a far more sensible way to go.” Yes most sane people would rush their 10kW steam generators into production and generate electricity using small steam engines, such as have been available since 1802. That is, unless they were swindlers who DON’T HAVE a small generator, so to string their marks along they invent an imaginary behemoth generator as a misdirection and delaying tactic.

        Not sensible for an honest inventor – sensible only for a scammer.

      • Bob Says:

        Bruce, the technical description says the inject a lubricant every so often. That could be a real problem for a closed loop system. Other than that, it looks great.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Here’s a heavy duty turbine that can use steam or R-134.

        I believe it would take 3 or 4 E-Cats using R-134 with a 5th E-Cat in reserve.

      • brucefast Says:

        Iggy, “I still think the Cyclone is the best fit.”
        The advantage that the Cyclone has is that the company is public, so easy to invest in. The first problem with the cyclone is that they have no product “for sale”. Further, I am concerned that the cyclone has similar lubrication problems. They say that it gets all the lube it needs from the water used for steam, but I’m not sure its as effective as all that. Lubrication has been a huge hangup with steam power.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – read it a bit more carefully – they have solved the problem of seals very neatly. Lubrication will always be a problem with steam since it breaks most lubricants down, but with a bit of outside engineering help and Torlon seals, this one could overcome that problem – the seals are kept almost perpendicular to the walls and are not under high stress. It helps that it works at low temperatures and pressures, too. Normal steam oil will work with the current design, but if a large engine manufacturer took it on and made the obvious changes then this is such a neat and compact design it could be very good.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Most problems building heat engines are to do with friction and the differential expansions of some parts with the heat. The friction problem means you have to get all rubbing parts either lubricated or you make ones that do not need it. If one surface is coated with a smooth very hard material (normally Chromium but could be Sapphire or Diamond nowadays) and the other is one of the self-lubricating plastics (PTFE, Torlon) then oil should not be needed. The heat problem means that you need to design the engine such that parts in rubbing contact with each other are of the same thermal expansion rate and/or are at the same temperature as each other.

        As a replacement for the coating, there are now some very hard and smooth ceramics available. If the Cyclone cylinders and pistons were made of this material, then water would be an adequate lubricant. Ceramics tend to be not good for use in explosive situations (standard internal combustion engine) since they are somewhat brittle, but for a steam engine they are very good. This small step forward could make all the difference as to whether Cyclone can produce something that really can compete with petrol/diesel engines.

        The Quasiturbine I pointed to above could also use this relatively new technology (maybe 20 years since it became available). They would have to use CNC grinding machines to get the shapes right, but the final engine would be long-lasting. Since the initial ceramic pieces can be produced almost the correct size and shape, the machining task is reduced. Making these is a difficult task for a small machine-shop such as theirs, but just a matter of programming for a big engine-maker.

        The problems we see on the profitability of small companies making new engine designs, therefore, is that they aren’t big enough yet to get the economies of scale. If they sold more engines and made enough profit they could get the machinery to make things more cheaply and thus make more profit. If the design is good enough, then they will sell anyway at their current high prices and still make good, but that currently seems unlikely (hence the penny shares). It needs a big manufacturer to take the design and run with it. Once one does, and sets the new standard, we’ll be able to buy them easily and cheaply.

      • brucefast Says:

        Simon, your knowledge is astounding — again. I do agree that it is really hard for very small companies to develop economies of scale. I think, however, that when the new technology breaks forth, the position these companies will find themselves in will be fantastic. I suspect that they will be sucked up by the big companies like so much candy.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – I spent a while researching this back in 1986, so I found out what could be done and needed to be done. I just couldn’t afford to get it done and couldn’t do it myself. Carch-22 again. Unless it is produced by a big company, no-one wants to risk it.

        Another catch-22 is that big companies generally got that way by not taking big risks (or by working for the government – same thing).

        So – only individuals take big risks if they are sufficiently convinced. Governments will only if they are persuaded there’s no risk really. The States has a big advantage over Europe in that individuals can be rich, and happy to risk a proportion of that money.

        The petrol and diesel engines currently in our cars and trucks are known to be complex and inefficient. There are better designs around, but no-one apart from a small company owned by its boss it going to try developing them. It needs lots of money to do that, and the big engine makers have no problems selling what they currently make, with the occasional upgrade. There has been no need for them to go radical and try a totally new design. We know this will have to change when LENR or something similar comes on the scene fully. Peak Oil, and the problems of high fuel prices, are not their problem – yet. They will have a severe wake-up call once people stop buying their products. And yes, Cyclone would then make money even with their current design – it works and has years of testing behind it, so they’ll know how long it lasts and what needs replacing after 10,000 miles, 50,000 miles and so on. As a generator driver, there will be maintenance every so-many hours of use. They might even introduce the newer technologies into it and make it more reliable still.

    • brucefast Says:

      Huh, a Canadian company at that.

  62. Craig Binns Says:

    Cyclone. No products for sale. No dividends paid that I can find. Therefore no P/E ratio. Current market quote $0.19. Previous close
    $0.21; Day low $0.18, Day high $0.21. 52 wk low $0.16, 52 wk high €0.48. The bubble in this crazy penny stock popped a while ago, as I feared it would.

    Invest in this if you have balls of brass, and a brain of hor$e$hit! Anyway, that’s my free advice.

  63. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Bearing in mind the recent off-topic discussions, it may be a good idea to have a subject of “shooting the breeze” where such comments would have their place without disturbing the main threads. Market prices, turmeric and language, while interesting in themselves (and adding to group cohesion) should really be separated from the LENR topics. Just a suggestion….

  64. Craig Binns Says:

    Simon, good idea. But Brucefast has been drawing attention to Cyclone since the earliest days of this blog, and as you see above, commending the ease with which investment can be made in it.

    In these circumstances a market quote seems relevant. Don’t you agree?

  65. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    The new wear-resistant coating might have saved the Wankel. The Wankel had another problem with a hot spot where the combustion occurred, causing the chamber to warp. This warping would not likely happen in a Wankel steam motor.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      You’re right, Iggy. I think also that The Wankel would have two inlets and two outlets per cylinder as a steam engine. You’d need only two cylinders to ensure it always rotated from stationary (no dead spots) but it would be very compact. Which of the current designs ends up the best really depends on frictional losses and porting losses and I can’t see that much difference between them. I think that the Quasiturbine has a bit less stresses and sensitivity to wear, so may be slightly better in the long run. On the other hand it needs more seals. Damn! We need a one-handed Engineer, too!

  66. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Another motor that uses low-grade heat of around 80°C: is a hydraulic motor. Government funded – looks good. Cost per installed kW, however, is around $2000. It’s only guaranteed 1 year, but this is the 250kW device that therefore costs around half a million. It could run 25-50 homes (so say $10K-20K each), plus the cost of the reactor and the local grid Alain was talking about, and it starts to look expensive. It should be a lot cheaper if mass-produced – the technology is not that difficult.

  67. brucefast Says:

    Craig, check this out.

    Seems that the Whitehorse jail is a scam!
    Delay is your strongest metric of scam detection.

    • Craig Binns Says:

      Brucefast, yes of course. Whitehorse was promised a 50 cell jail, which the builders refused to let anyone see. Instead the builders are going head with a thousand cell jail, to be delivered later. Nobody gets to see it either.

      Meanwhile only a small minority of theorists believe that jails exist, or could be made to exist. One theorist who does believe is a certain Mr Rossi, who claims even to have been inside one following charges of tax evasion, gold smuggling and messing about with discarded car tyres.

  68. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Bruce, if you don’t mind, please tell us a little about Whitehorse. What is the economy mostly based on? Tourism, mining, timber?

    I saw on the map a large meteorite crater somewhere near your area. I read elsewhere that meteorite craters are like cosmic frack jobs…..which make oil and gas easy to pump up.

  69. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Having studied jails from the inside out, Rossi was determined to design and build his own E-Slammer. Rumor has it that he’s planning to break tradition and build 1,000 ten-cell E-Slammers. He promises a COP (coefficient of punishment) of 6. No gallows, that would be overkill.

  70. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Exotic Antimatter Caught in Disappearing Act
    Scientists have caught a rare type of exotic particle in the act of disappearing, and the vanishing trick appears to be more common than expected.

    For the first time, researchers have observed particles called electron antineutrinos turning into other types of particles, and calculated the frequency at which this happens. Though the phenomenon is extremely rare, it turns out that it’s slightly less rare than once thought.

    Electron antineutrinos are odd in a number of ways. For one thing, they’re a kind of antimatter — the strange cousin of matter with the inconvenient habit of annihilating matter on contact.

    But even regular neutrinos are a little befuddling. Neutrinos come in three types, or flavors: electron, muon and tau. For each of these, there is an antimatter partner particle (the electron antineutrino, the muon antineutrino and the tau antineutrino) with equal mass but opposite charge.

  71. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Rossi interview with transcript.

  72. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Correction: Make that an abbreviated mini-transcript.

  73. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I liked the part where he described his dual personality. His black horse likes to run fast and talk big. His white horse says, “Blackie, you’re talking too much”.

  74. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Just a sharp comment on the way some people do research:

  75. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Ha! They had to look it up the old way.

    Actually wiki is usually good, except on controversial subjects, then the author’s bias frequently shows.

    Trouble is, the really good writers often end up working for the establishment and wiki favors articulate writers. that’s how the establishment controls group thought. Innovators frequently are not that good at expressing their thoughts, so their views get less publication.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Most top professionals have a good command of the language and use good grammar, punctuation, correct spelling, etc. In the past decade or so I’ve noticed some pretty atrocious spelling by advanced scientists and medical doctors. Since the advent of texting, spelling and punctuation have really gone down the tubes. I can excuse the use of shorthand in texting but it’s spreading into formal writing. I see it occasionally in respected newspapers and magazines, especially their blogs.

      One of the worst offenses is using “their” for “they’re”. A common error is “it’s” when showing possession. It took an East German MD to drill into me the proper use of “it’s” and “its”.

      My girlfriend says, “I seen”. That really grates on my nerves but I forgive her because she was raised in very small rural community of 40 or 50 people and that’s the way they talk. Her daughter is the manager of the largest bank in town and she talks the same way.

      • brucefast Says:

        I certainly am not a “top professional”, but my spelling and vocabulary have gone up notably because of the net. (In fact I just through in a wrongly spelled “notably”.) I use Google chrome which underlines misspells for me. When I throw in a word I think is right, but have rejected by the speller, I search it. Google search is much better than chrome at offering the correct spelling — go figure. However, as often as not my word shows up in the urban dictionary. Good enough for me.

        My first stint at college was 35 years ago. Papers had to be typed, spelled perfectly, with footnotes. Interestingly enough, even in classes that were far from the language arts had these requirements. I remember having a computer which I rented out to fellow students. I asked the “computer science” professors whether this would be “ok” for papers in their classes. “Does the spell checker point out errors, or does it fix them?” was the question. The professors were concerned that the computer would make the students lazy.

        I went back to college 15 years later. The professors now accepted in-line notes such as APA citations rather than those dastardly footnotes. The things were a beast, though only 1/10th so with the advent of computers. Professors required that papers be “spell-checked”, but accepted spelling errors where the word as stated passed the spell-check because it had a different meaning. Go figure.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – spell-checking doesn’t always help – you “through” in a misspelling of threw. Even though I check my posts about 3 times for mis-spellings there’s often the odd one that gets through. Then there’s the word-order – I try not to say ‘I don’t think’ because I do think, so I say ‘I think that xxx is not…’ instead. Real goobers are caught by the spell-checker (I use Linux, so it checks everything) but I don’t always agree with it, and in any case it doesn’t understand a lot of technical terms.

        Sadly for my tutors, my assignments were hand-written. At Xerox my first failure-analysis reports were also hand-written, which persuaded them to get me a computer and word-process them – much easier to read.

        Maybe once they add to the spell-checker and grammar checker a context checker, we’ll start to see good English once again in the various things we read. I even see spelling errors on the BBC at the moment – the “ticker-tape” that runs on the bottom of the news has some funny goobers at times.

        One frequent error I get is to hit the keys in the wrong order so “and” becomes “adn” for example. It may be a timing error on my part or maybe the keyboard scan is a bit slow. I find a good way of getting all the errors is to read using a different format (either paper or use a different column width) so I actually see the errors.

  76. Bob Says:

    A SAD follow on

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Bob – it may be a pony, but I’m severely doubtful. If it is open-sourced, then anyone can manufacture it. If we suddenly see a spate of these things being sold (and actually working) I’ll be very surprised. I’ll put up some physics as a separate post.

      • Bob Says:

        Simon, I agree! Saw it and thought I would post. If you look at the picture its one of the Tesla Antenna type of designs. Every talks about them, but no one ever shows real working systems. It would be great if one of these “miracle” circuits ever worked.

        I have an infinity wire I’m open sourcing, everyone send me money and I will publish in a couple weeks, if I’m not testing or redesigning. Delays do happen!!

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        You may remember Sterling Allan had several articles about the Aviso self-charging electric car. This car was claimed to receive energy from the environment.

      • brucefast Says:

        My take on this thing is that it’d turn the first and second laws on their heads. This is radically different than saying that the physics community has been ignoring a good idea because creative marketing by some have kept it out of awareness. (I think that the hot fusion boys have been the creative marketers.) That said, though LENR may require some significant tweaking in the details of the behavior of atoms, it isn’t like a founding law of physics must be abandoned.

        If this back EMF thing is for real, I’ll eat my toque — boil it up with a little steak sauce or something to make it vaguely edible, but I’ll eat it anyway.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        One other thing that may be useful on this one: . Maybe this little circuit could be useful to people who spend a lot on batteries, and you can build it on Veroboard for a few bucks. I also looked up the Aviso project, and this looks to be much the same as SAD2, but the “tests” were ridiculously short for an “overunity” device. If it self-charged, then it should run for years without external power, not just 10 or 3 minutes.

        As I stated in the somewhat long post below, breaking Thermodynamics is possible and has been demonstrated at MIT. So far I have not seen any such breaking that produces useful amounts of power, but we need to keep an open mind on new ideas. Since air pressure itself has an energy interchange of around 10kW per square metre, there may be ways to harvest this work someday. Unfortunately the SAD and SAD2 are not the ones to do this.

        Stick with LENR, guys. It is at least real.

  77. Simon Derricutt Says:

    I’ll post here (since it’s off-topic but may otherwise be useful) the reasons why I no longer pan an “energy out of thin air” idea as a scam without some consideration.

    We tend to regard work and energy as the same thing – they have the same dimensions, after all. In truth this is not correct. Energy can be neither created or destroyed in the physics we know, though the Big Bang theory says that it was all created at a point in time (actually when time began) and there is some talk amongst cosmologists that there should be a lot more matter now than they can see. That digression is just to point out that nothing is really certain, and that we might at some point find out how to make matter from nothing.

    We are told in Thermodynamics that we do work when we transform energy from one form to another, for example electricity to heat or vice-versa. If you boil down all the types of energy we know, such as heat, gravitational, kinetic, magnetic field etc. then we find that it is all actually one thing that we know as mass/energy. You can’t convert it.

    What we are doing when we do work is to take a more concentrated form of energy (say high temperature) and let it dissipate to a less-concentrated form of energy (say a lower temperature) whilst doing the work we want. The energy that we “use” is still there in exactly the same amount when we have done the work.

    Work is thus a somewhat slippery idea. If you drive the car to your place of business, the car uses energy and does work. When you go home at the end of the day, it does some more. The actual amount of useful work it does during the day is actually zero – you are back at the same point. All the concentrated energy in the fuel ends up as heat in the atmosphere.

    In order to use the same energy to do more work, it needs to be re-concentrated. This is precisely what Thermodynamics tells us that we can’t do, and since this principle has served us well for a couple of centuries, we tend to believe it. The problem is that Thermodynamics is actually only valid for large numbers of particles and for cycles. During a cycle it can and probably will be broken at some point. See for a nice mathematical treatment of this.

    At the molecular level, a collision between molecules does not always result in the higher-energy molecule giving its energy to the lower-energy molecule – a glancing collision may result in the lower-energy molecule giving its energy to the faster one. If there is a non-linear function applied to a random collection of particles (like a diode) then there will be a change in the overall flow. In this way, you can see that it is possible that a collection of particles could sort themselves into higher energy areas and lower energy areas.

    In summary, by using structures of the same approximate size as the distance between gas molecules, you can probably make a machine that maintains a constant pressure or heat difference while using no energy, and this energy difference may be utilised to do work continuously. This is energy from thin air in common parlance, though it is in fact work we are getting out for free. The total energy held in the machine must drop or get replenished from somewhere in the course of doing this work.

    A “free energy” machine, therefore, must have a visible way in which the energy is persuaded to sort itself into such high-energy and low-energy areas. The energy you get out has to come from somewhere, and so either the machine will cool down while giving you the work or there will be some other fairly obvious energy flow. A 5kW energy flow should be easy to see. Since I do not see this in most designs or descriptions, I can be reasonably sure that they are untrue.

    LENR converts mass directly into energy, and the change in mass is somewhat difficult to measure except by using a very sensitive weighing machine that is also very expensive. This is the other way we can get our work done, so it’s the alternate explanation for the “battery charger” above. Unless someone thinks up a feasible way of lead undergoing a nuclear reaction in sulphuric acid, I’m somewhat sceptical of this.

    Of course, I could be wrong on this, and we’ll suddenly see lead-acid batteries being used everywhere (and I’ll need some really good sauce for my beret), but I think I’m safe on this one.

    It is necessary to bear in mind though that “free work” is indeed possible, and has been demonstrated at MIT with their LEDs. Scale up this idea (unfortunately it won’t) and there could well be some official changes to the textbooks. Sometime one of those PESN projects may actually work.

  78. psi Says:

    My Two cents:

  79. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    A Rossi Is A Rose By Any Other Name

    What Pete Rose was to baseball, Andrea Rossi is to energy.

    “Does Pete (Rose) hustle? Before the All-Star game he came into the clubhouse and took off his shoes and they ran another mile without him.” – Hank Aaron

  80. Simon Derricutt Says:

    There do seem to be a lot of people chasing the idea of cheap energy. People have been doing this for a long time, of course, but these days there’s a lot more communication about it.

    The reasons for this are probably that we now see the cost of energy as a major problem, and that the previous sources of fossil fuels (oil, gas, coal) are now seen as limited and will run out in our lifetime. The Global Warming argument, though probably wrong, has also focussed a lot of people on the energy question.

    Nuclear power in the traditional Uranium fission sense has been shown to be inherently dangerous in some parts of the world (Fukushima) and somewhat of a risk in most places. Although modern reactor design is a lot safer than the older designs that have failed (Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and a few others) there is no absolute safety. A terrorist attack could cause problems with most reactors – any building hit by a 747 is going to have a problem.

    There is also a problem with the power grid itself. Solar flares can cause it to overload, and we only get around 45 minutes prior warning of this happening. Power outage in an advanced nation will cause problems in daily living. Traffic control fails, communications fail, and everything grinds pretty well to a halt until power is back on.

    Electricity is essential to our current way of life. We need an alternative cheap source of it that can be generated in people’s individual homes, both to free them from the grid outages and to reduce the cost of this as a percentage of the household budget. We also need this compact source of energy for our cars – modern life depends upon having a car to get to work. Although the internet allows some people to work from home, the shops, factories and other places where things are made in a collaborative effort are still going to need people to be there in person to get the work done, so most people will still need to commute to work.

    On this blog, we have been concentrating on LENR using the Nickel-Hydrogen reaction because it offers this panacea for the problems facing us. Although my estimate of Rossi’s and Defkalion’s chances of success varies as new news does (or does not) come in, I am pretty certain that we will be able to buy a home version in less than 5 years. Most likely Defkalion before Rossi, but someone we haven’t heard of may also get there first.

    What of the other efforts, though? Gregoryyc is working on a magnetic idea. Although I personally think it won’t work, I really hope he does succeed and thus rewrite the physics books. There are also other Tesla-based ideas, but a lot of people have been trying for a long time to make his ideas work, and I still have not seen a manufactured one that I can buy. I’ve seen videos on YouTube, of course, but it is so easy to make a false ‘demo’ that I need to see one myself before I’ll accept that it works. The same goes for the “powered by gravity” machines. I just can’t see where the energy comes from. As I’ve stated earlier, I have no objection to work being done several times by the same amount of energy, thus getting a work-multiplying effect – work is not conserved, only energy. My main objection to the “free energy” demos I’ve seen is that they measure the energy from the wall, measure the energy out and say the energy out is greater than that put in. They don’t loop the output to the input and thus have a self-running machine that just gives you a constant supply of power. This is the central necessity for any machine that is supposed to give us power. We get the power that is excess to that which is required to run it, whether that is a gas-powered generator, a coal-fired steam engine or a nuclear-fired power station. Feed in the fuel, and we get a percentage of that out as electricity – except in the case of the “free energy” ones where no fuel is needed.

    This is why I am concentrating on LENR – I can see where the energy comes from (loss of mass) and it can be compact enough for easy assimilation into a normal house.

    If Gregoryyc’s machine allows him to use 1kWh to charge a battery, and then he gets more than 1kWh of energy out again and this can be repeatedly done, then he will have reached the grail of free energy. The SAD and SAD2 promise this, too, but (as usual in such things) there seem to be delays in delivery of a working device. I would hope that if Gregoryyc’s machine actually works, he’ll show it to a big manufacturer of gensets and get it into production – you can’t argue that it won’t work then. Also he wouldn’t need to go to Sterling Allen to get it publicised or get donations to help it along. It would sell itself, and hopefully make Gregoryyc a fortune in so doing.

    So this is the acid test for any “free energy” machine – can you remove the plug from the wall-socket and let it run itself and a load for much longer than the batteries would conceivably last driving that load without the machine? It’s a good idea to use a small battery (or a fairly large capacitor) to make the tests quicker, and also small machines tend to cost less in time and money to build. When you have something working, go see a manufacturer (under NDA) and get it built and sold – the manufacturer will help you get a patent sorted out. There’s really no point in a YouTube video of it working (there are many similar ones out there already) – people will be able to buy one instead.

    Free or nearly-free energy is needed in the world. It’s good that people are trying different ways to achieve this, but it is easy to get fooled by measurements into thinking you’ve got an energy gain. If it will run itself in looped mode and still give you energy, it’s real, otherwise it’s not.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      It will seem tinfoil hat fringe, and begging of the MFC conspiracy bent that Ben and Tom B. subscribe to, but it may be that the industrial energy complex has so infiltrated every possible world state office that any NFE type power source that actually works – has been intentionally vanished. Therefore leaving current publicly named NFE claimants, vetted by the ultimate energy powers, as proven defunct. If they worked they would have been suppressed and consumed by the energy cartel agents thereby leaving us without knowledge of them. If they exist and are known, they consequentially cannot work. Kind of a Catch 44.

      This was a concept I developed fifteen years or so ago when I became interested in over unity, “zero point energy” type theories. I don’t accept the theory any longer but I put it out there for debate fodder.

      And Simon, “sauce for my beret” – I had to think a bit on that one… “why would he want to put sauce on a french hat?”…

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I suspect some big company(s) may be partnered with Rossi. I’m hoping they won’t squelch his dream. Hopefully the partners are resigned to the fact that the genie is out of the bottle.

  81. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Great Whistle

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      <Triple Expansion Steam Engine
      An animation of a double-acting inverted triple-expansion marine engine.
      High-pressure steam (red) enters from the boiler and passes through the engine, exhausting as low-pressure steam (blue) to the condenser.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Too cool! Love the tractor too. The advent of electricity was humanity’s downfall. The integrated circuit the end of a natural humanity. Kurzweil, Vinge, Joy and Stephenson can eat my shorts.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Back in the 60s I traded with the Case Tractor dealer that was the 1st to adapt a pneumatic tire to a farm tractor. He looked to be in his 80s and worked behind the parts counter in a motorized wheelchair.

    • Bob Says:

      A guy in our town had a tractor like that when I was a kid. He would bring it to the parades and it was the kids favorite. We used to run along beside it as we loved the loud whistle, it was the best.

  82. Anony Mole Says:

    • easily some of the best scientists the planet has ever produced.
    • incredibly industrious and hard working people.
    • trapped without substantial fossil fuel type energy resources.
    • now about to begin the shutdown of all of their nuclear fission plants.
    • about to spend more than $250B to build out their alternative energy systems.

    If Germany is not THE best target for a LENR revolution I don’t know who is. (OK – probably Japan but that’s be side the point)

    If LENR has ANY possibility of becoming a commercial reality then we should expect to see Germany (or Japan) leading the way. If we DON’T see Germany or Japan announcing substantial progress with LENR energy production – very soon – then my guess is that the assumptions we have all been making about the possibility of viable LENR have serious faults.

  83. Bob Says:

    Maybe a clue what is happening with hydrogen in the reactor.

  84. Simon Derricutt Says:

    For interest, I followed a pointer from Iggy on rocket fuel and ended up here:
    where Robert Mockan runs an analysis of Piantelli’s work, and points out that anyone could build their own Ecat. Funnily enough, he also states that thin sheets of Nickel would be easier to work with – less compact, but you can get 5kW from the same overall size. There are also some other interesting ideas on this site.

  85. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Celani lecture underway at CERN.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Pretty telling I’d say – Celani’s presentation slides:

      Real scientists – milliwatts
      Real scientists – milliwatts
      Real scientists – milliwatts
      Real scientists – milliwatts
      Real scientists – watts
      Real scientists – watts
      Real scientists – watts
      Real scientists – watts
      Rossi & Defkalion – kilowatts
      Real scientists – watts

      Sing it with me now “One of these things is not like the others…”

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Not too much of a problem, Anony. The scientists were working with small quantities to test things out and prove the reaction. Rossi and Defkalion are using a lot more Nickel powder in their devices, so you get a lot more power out. There’s maybe an extra factor of 3 in their stated yield over the best real scientists’ results – not too much of a jump. Put more wood on, you get a bigger fire.

  86. Bob Says:

    Here is a link to a meeting being held by the Neshe Foundation (never herd of them). They have a meeting April 21 in Belgium with people from around the world invited. They plan on demonstrating their the chnology as it relates to Anti-gravity.

    This is from SA web site, so take it with a grain of salt. What is interesting is the things mentioned could have been taken off the UFO blogs we have all seen for years. Don’t know what to think of it, but here it is for your reading pleasure.

    • Bob Says:

      I went into his web site. This is they guy that claimed he invented anti-gravity and gave it to Iran. This story has been around for several years. He was detained in Canada and was asked about this on the blog, boy did he have bad things to say about Canada. I have next to zero confidence anything will come of this. Its like watching a B grade sci-Fi movie.

  87. Bob Says:

    I know I’m off subject, but this is neat. 3D imaging of the future is here.

  88. Bob Says:

    Great comments Simon. I think your right on in what you have stated. I believe that Oil companies will try to get into LENR, but I’m skeptical as to the likelihood of them being successful. I believe the management stile and skill sets will not translate well to this new technology.
    I state that based somewhat on the personal computer history. When the Apple first came out and others jumped in the people that did well initially, like Radio Shack did not have the real vision and the mentality to gear up for what it would take. A lot of people thought the typewriter companies might dominate as it was a natural extension of their present business model. Once again, they didn’t have the expertise for the conversion to make this market go. There were companies that came out with their own special software and sold systems, mostly word processors, but they went no further and the market was fragmented.
    IBM came out with an open system allowing others to add cards and software and add value and the market exploded. It succeeded so well that IBM was pushed out of the market by the relentless push for lower prices. Selling to China was just the end game for that technology. Dell, HP survived by relentless consolidation and manufacturing muscle. The Business is far from the explosive days and is in almost survival mode because of price pressures.
    Whats interesting is that off all the early players, Apple is the one that is succeeding. They broke all the rules, closed hardware and software and almost went under, but they had the one thing that you can’t count on, innovation. In my opinion, they broke all the normal rules and succeeded wildly because they learned how to make computers people friendly. While Microsoft was a huge success by any standard, most people hate them because of the software not being user friendly and full of issues. Engineers love Unix, but that’s a small part of the market. I have been amazed that someone hasn’t displaced Microsoft by developing a better operating system, but that shows how hard it is to displace once something is established.
    Didn’t mean to make this a PC discussion, but There are many of the same issues that will be faced by LENR. If you look at what it will take to succeed, it will be electronics, software, material science and manufacturing muscle. You would think that GE would be a big player in this area, but I’m skeptical hey can move that fast. Oil companies don’t understand what it takes and as long as the old guard have the “laying on of hands” regarding direction. I personally believe that we don’t know the name of the company that will be the big player or players in this market, they don’t exist today. Will Rossi succeed, that’s a crap shoot to me. I think he has too many personality issues to be a long term success. I believe that a few people will figure it out and several start-ups will plow the field and shape the industry. After years of growth, things will start to move to Asia, just like electronics has and America will be looking for the next big thing.
    The evolution of the technology will set off new and just as significant revolutions that will also go the same way in development, but the world will have changed so much, that my crystall ball can’t understand what it sees.

  89. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Simon is probably right about LENR production moving to the East but with automated production, that shouldn’t be necessary. Labor costs will not necessarily be the deciding factor. China’s biggest advantage is that it is pro-business. Obama is anti-rich, anti-business, and pro-socialist…a proven recipe for financial disaster. Obama’s latest coup is saddling the US with the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Meanwhile Obama’s handlers, Silicon Valley, GE, and Warren Buffett, praise high taxes while moving production offshore and using every tax dodge in the book.

    Some China production is starting to move back to the US because of cheaper energy and cost of materials.

    Remember when Japan could do no wrong….when it looked like Japan would soon own the world? Now they’re calling this Japan’s lost decade. Japan’s national debt makes the US and Greece look like paragons of prudence.

  90. Bob Says:

    Is it time to Pick

    I have been looking at Hot Fusion for its history and research and have come to a personal conclusion that its time to pull the plug on public funding or at a minimum consolidate efforts and set goals. I remember in 1976 talking to a professor at UT that assured me Fusion reactors would start commercial use within 5 to 10 years maximum. They used to always say its within 10 years, but as time goes buy those times are being stretched. Now people are estimating 20 years and some 30 or more.
    Fusion is the Holy Grail for energy, but after spending over 200 billion on research funding the question has to be asked, Is it time to pull the plug on funding. We are broke and can not afford such spending. Sometimes if the technology is not there or the theory is not there, no matter how much you spend, you won’t succeed until certain breakthroughs emerge.
    Recent private efforts have emerged in this area and appear to be making giant strides and all for modest investments. Maybe funding should modestly be funneled more to private firms and less to the academics who make a career out of slow plodding efforts.
    On top of all these issues Cold Fusion has reemerged with considerable verification through testing and has been shown to be repeatable. All the efforts are being done on a shoe string budgets. With all the progress being made its easy to guess what may happen in moving this technology along with a billion spread around.

    I vote to end Most of Hot Fusion, just keep a small effort funded and funnel some of the money to LENR.

  91. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I agree. Look what the govt has accomplished in the war on cancer. Almost nothing.

  92. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    What do y’all make of the Terawatt magnetic motor? They don’t give much info but they have some important people on board and they claim that independent testers (incl UL) have confirmed overunity.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Looks interesting, Iggy, but I’ve no idea how it is supposed to work. Funnily SA says “When I phoned the company yesterday, they basically hung up on me when I identified myself” so they definitely don’t want to be tarred with the same brush as other overunity projects. The people line-up is astounding. If this is all true, then the textbooks will have to be rewritten.

    • brucefast Says:

      Terawatt confuses me. They report that their UL report was made in 2008. Would they really sit on an electricity to electricity 3x converter for 3 years and do nothing with it? That, added to the fact that the thing is so clearly in opposition to recognized scientific law (extreme extra evidence is called for) and I am not buying it.

      I noticed that Terawatt says that UL says — they don’t provide a link into UL for findings report. I searched the UL website for the report numbers sited in the website, and came up with nothing. I e-mailed UL, asking them to confirm their work. I’ll be softer to Terawatt if UL confirms their findings.

      I really do have some Craig Binns in me.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – it could be that they have had problems looping it back to itself to give free energy – if the measurements are correct and truthful then this ought to be possible. If they have problems doing that then their careful measurements may well be wrong, and they are all now bald. I’ve pointed out before how easy it is to be fooled by instrumenation (I’ve been fooled myself in the past, so I use several methods on the same problem if it matters, and see if they agree).

        If the website is in fact truthful (can’t guarantee that!) and those people really are running that company, then I would expect that they have measured an energy gain, and have been working on getting a production version designed. If it was a government or Navy project, then they are saying far too much and we shouldn’t even find the website.

        It says on the website that the guy who invented it started work using springs, and got a result, so decided to use magnets instead. I think the idea is supposed to be that the first disc drives the second disc at the same speed but higher torque, and the third “resonator” type device gives a kick to the second shaft at the right time to keep it from reversing. As such, since the output torque measurement (note that the torque measurement is + and -) is on the shaft between the resonator and the disc, if they are taking the RMS torque then they would naturally see an increase in power. I could measure the work done by the spring in a weighted oscillator and get a similar reading. If you actually take this energy out, the oscillation stops and you have nothing. It could be why they’ve torn their hair out.

        If you read my essay on Work, you’ll see that Energy and Work are actually two different things, even though they have the same dimensions and are treated as the same thing. In order to get more work from a given amount of energy, you only have to persuade it to become more concentrated in one spot. After the work is done, the same amount of energy remains, just spread out a bit. So these types of machine are just about possible, but we just haven’t seen them yet – and I don’t think this is one, either. It would be nice if it was, since it is classically simple and elegant.

    • Bob Says:

      Simon – I would give these guys extra points for hanging up on SA.
      They may deserve a closer look.

  93. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Off topic, but interesting linear motor fro vortex.
    A novel motor design by gotoluc…
    part 1

    part 2

    Maybe good for electric jackhammer, pogo stick, or hammer drill.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Or pile-driver, nail-gun, or robotic kangaroo.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – thanks, that’s interesting. Something to play with when I get the time – I can’t see why the coil moves when energised wince the magnets are set south-poles in facing each other. It seems to work, though.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, assuming this reciprocating motor is for real, shouldn’t it also act as a generator? If so, could the motors be incorporated in automotive shock-absorbers which would dampen the bumpy road and at the same time charge the battery? That’s not an original idea but this device might be a more efficient generator. The vibration might degrade the permanent magnets. I seem to recall that a permanent magnet will degrade if subjected to impact.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – he says he tested it as a generator and it didn’t produce very much back emf – probably because his magnets are back-to-back. This thing works (if it does, and it appears to…) on the spreading of the magnetic flux between the magnets – fringe fields. For a shock absorber, it would be better to have a normal linear generator that is optimised to generate electricity.

        I’d like to see what power is generated using a dynamometer, or at least putting a generator on the motor shaft and seeing how much electrical power is generated. Although I really don’t believe in overunity operation for this type of magnetic device, I’m open to having my mind changed if the proof is good enough.

    • Bob Says:

      This is very interesting. I feel I’m missing something in my understanding of magnatism. May be time to go get some magnets and play around. If you made a bunch of these (8) and connected them to a crank shaft, I wonder what kind of torque would result.

      A guy could make one heck of a buckle pollisher, maybe automated shoe shine machines.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Teal Magnipulsion Motor

  94. Bob Says:

    I see the Noble engine is claiming to be getting close to production, September being mentioned. Here is the link.

    Opinions people!

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Didn’t they also claim that for July 2010? I can’t see any validity in the physics for this – at least the way Rohmer explains what’s happening. As far as I know, no-one has independently verified that the engine works, so all we have is some weird claims that a dynamometer undermeasures the horsepower of the engine, and that their control system can regulate the speed of rotation to 0.1% – with a piston engine that really isn’t possible without some extremely clever sensors and control systems and an absolutely constant load. I predict that September will come and go, and that there will be delays through problems in manufacturing and the next roll-out will be planned for July 2013. The current 240 (?) hp output will be upgraded to 500hp for the same size engine for the July 2013 launch.

      If it works, why not produce a nice little 1hp or 10hp engine that drives a small generator? This would cost so much less to produce and test, and could be rolled out quickly. If it works….

      With new technologies, it saves a lot of time, money and effort to start small and work your way up. With LENR, I’ll be happy to have a validated system that gives 1 watt output, and then scale it to 10, 100 and 1000 watt and upwards. Prove the principle cheaply and quickly, then make the technology better.

      I for one will not be investing any time or energy into investigating the Papp motor technology. I do not believe it works.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I agree. Really farfetched. If it’s only a few months from commercial production, why not keep their mouths shut and surprise the world with a working product? Answer: because they’re trying to sell stock and licensing.

        Having said that, I’d still invest a token amount with the same expectation of winning a lottery.

      • Bob Says:

        Thanks Simon and Iggy. That’s pretty much how I feel, but I have to be guarded as I have gotten very negative on over unity motors. They all smell like scam to me, but would love to be blind sided.

        Sterling never asks the tough questions!

  95. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Italian Magazine Interview

    • Bob Says:

      Interesting post. Opening plants in Italy and Sweden as major plants and additional ones in Greece, China, Australia,
      If this truly happens and defkalion opens all the plants they have talked about, their will be an explosion of LENR sold around the world and the economic impact will be very quick. Short oil to zero (just kidding)!

  96. Bob Says:

    Here is an interesting link. An old paper on cold fusion By Edmund Storms

    “A Students Guide to Cold fusion”

    Hopefully there are some insights for the Replicators.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Thanks, Bob. I’d seen the earlier version of this, but he’s updated the article this year and it’s a thoughtful and thought-provoking resumé of the field. It should be read by the various skeptics (Craig – please read it!) since it is a very balanced viewpoint. It is indeed a pointer on how to improve the search for a working version that can be properly validated.

  97. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Off topic, but shipping containers could be made much more useful for other purposes.

    My idea is to build containers with removal end-caps. One end of the container would be ‘male’ and the other end would be ‘female’.

    The containers could then be fitted end to end making a longer container. The end-cap would have a ‘male’ side and a ‘female’ side, which would allow it to close either end of a container.

    This modification would make the containers more versatile as containers, dwellings, offices, etc.

  98. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Missouri University have got a grant to investigate LENR. Mainstream enough? It not a Government grant, though….

  99. Bob Says:

    Here is an update on the Cavitation Saga out of Nanospire. It is quite interesting. 3kWatt for $200. Some of their claims are pretty incredible.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Bob – their comments seem to be aimed at claiming the whole of cavitation technology and wanting a cut from anyone who produces something that uses it. Ed Storms (who I think is an honest and good researcher) denies saying it works as they claim he did. There are too many inconsistencies in their words, and I don’t trust their measurements and claims, even though the basic effects seem valid.

      This is so easy to do (use a Ford (high-pressure system) Diesel injection pump for the test) that it should be replicable in back-shed experiments. I haven’t yet seen the same claims of transmutation of water into every other element from anyone else, or the claims of radiation poisoning either – even when the other people at the NRL test were in the same room as LeClair.

      So – something’s happening and needs looking at, but their claims are currently too extraordinary to be believed until there’s some independent replication of them (or I’ve seen/measured it myself…).

      • Bob Says:

        The more I read about NanoSpire, the more I believe them to be just opportunist. I believe they have stumbled onto something, but are exaggeration their findings. Others need to turn this into real scientific investigation, but I suspect any product hitting the market will face legal challenges. Anyone entering this market needs to read and understand the claims.

        If the transmutation is so easy, why aren’t they just producing Gold to finance everything else.

        Yes, this area needs further investigation.

  100. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    The Peak Oil Crisis: The Quantum Fusion Hypothesis
    By Tom Whipple
    Friday, April 27 2012 05:08:48 AM

    For nearly 25 years now, the idea that it might be possible to extract unlimited amounts of energy from the nucleus of a hydrogen atom at low temperatures has been pretty much in disrepute. When major laboratories were unable to detect nuclear reactions on their work benches back in 1989, the whole notion of what was then called “cold fusion” was debunked as junk science and for most remains so to this day. Fortunately however, a few scientists kept plugging away on just how one could get heat from the nucleus of a hydrogen atom. Now their efforts seem to be paying off. In recent months numerous respected scientists have been reporting at scientific gatherings that they are seeing increasing amounts of heat, which can only be coming from nuclear reactions, during experiments with hydrogen loaded into nickel and palladium under the proper conditions.

    There have been so many of these reports by reliable and respected scientists that it has become absurd to claim that the phenomenon is fraudulent or that all these scientists are mistaken in their observations. Currently there are at least six different organizations around the world saying they have a commercially useful heat-producing device under development which they will be demonstrating soon.
    To the comfort of skeptics, most of these organizations have been very circumspect in releasing details of their devices and the physics behind them. There are, of course several reasons for this reticence. Some may hope to keep their heat-producing secret as long as possible in hopes of making money from their discovery. More likely, however, is that while they have developed a way to produce heat, they really don’t understand the physics underlying their device.

    This situation however seems to be changing following a lengthy interview with a fellow out in Berkeley, California by the name of Robert Godes of Brillouin Energy. He has been working in this field for the last ten years and says that he not only has a reliable heat-producing device, but also understands the physics behind it – which he calls the Quantum Fusion Hypothesis. He says that this theory of just how low-energy nuclear reactions work has allowed the development of a device which produces heat immediately and reliably. Most interestingly, Godes says he has shared his insights with scientists at the Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratories and SRI International, one of the leading US laboratories investigating the phenomenon. He says that both have verified that his theory does indeed work and that they can now produce heat from hydrogen every time they try.

    Godes’ hypothesis is interesting for those with even a smattering of physics in their background. First of all, he holds that the heat which is coming from infusing hydrogen into nickel or palladium is not coming from “cold fusion” in the classic sense of the term. It is not a deuterium fusing with deuterium reaction as takes place in the sun or H-bombs and which requires extremely high energies.

    What seems to be happening in this new kind of fusion is that when hydrogen is “loaded” into nickel or palladium and subjected to the proper kind of an electromagnetic pulse, the hydrogen nucleus which is a positively charged proton acquires and electron which turns it into a low energy free neutron. Now a low energy free neutron is something very nice to have for it quickly combines with other protons to form deuterium, tritium and finally quadrium. The quadrium only lasts for an instant before undergoing a process called beta decay turning it into helium. This is where Einstein and E = MC2 comes in. The beta decay of quadrium results in a loss of mass which is turned into heat. If all this pans out as claimed, it could be one of the most important secrets of nature that has ever been discovered, for our energy problems are over.

    This new hypothesis, it is not yet a theory, says that It would be possible to use water as the source of all energy that mankind could ever want with no bad or radioactive leftovers — only helium and heat. Note that Godes says that if the reaction is done properly, the nickel or palladium which are only used as a matrix to hold the hydrogen in one place, are not consumed in the reaction. For those who are skeptical, and I don’t blame you for this a lot to comprehend, I recommend Brillouin’s web site ( where you will find some reasonably comprehensible explanations and videos as to just how all this supposedly works. For those conversant with Bose-Einstein condensates, the Molecular Hamiltonian, Heisenberg confinement energy, and the dense mathematics of nuclear physics there are papers there for you too.

    So what happens now? There is so much misunderstanding and skepticism about this phenomenon during the last 20 years, it is likely that the mainstream media will not touch the story until some highly respected institution rolls out a machine that is too hot to touch, will run for months without any visible source of power, and will belch fire and brimstone on command.

    Much to its credit, the first thing that Brillouin Energy says it is going to do with its new technology is to build a prototype boiler using its new heat source that would eventually replace the ones currently burning coal in our power stations. This is clearly a brilliant idea for swapping out old coal fired boilers for ones that run on a few cups of water would be a no-brainer for the world’s electricity industry – provided of course they can be made to work reliably.

    Brillouin Energy says they have a contract with SRI International to design and build a prototype of what they call a “Hot Tube” boiler. If the concept works well Brillouin would license the technology to the world’s boiler makers who presumably would work overtime replacing every fossil fuel fired boiler on the face of the earth. And that is just the start.

    Tom Whipple is a retired government analyst and has been following the peak oil issue for several years.


    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      “Tom Whipple is one of the most highly respected analysts of peak oil issues in the United States. A retired 30-year CIA analyst who has been following the peak oil story since 1999, Tom is the editor of the daily Peak Oil News and the weekly Peak Oil Review, both
      published by the Association for the Study of Peak Oil-USA. He is also a weekly columnist on peak oil issues for the Falls Church News Press. Tom has degrees from Rice University and the London School of Economics.”

      • Bob Says:

        It’s great to have someone of Tom’s caliber mention CF. It chips away and more and more people become aware.

        Speaking of peak oil, I’m note sure I believe it. The US has a reserve value of 20 billion listed, the same number they had in 1970. Between 1970 and today we have taken out a couple hundred billion barrels of oil in the US, but still be have a listed reserve of 20 billion. (The numbers from what I recall reading, but they are close)

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Nat gas from methane hydrate – a potential energy gold mine:

      “… the completion of a successful, unprecedented test of technology in the North Slope of Alaska that was able to safely extract a steady flow of natural gas from methane hydrates – a vast, entirely untapped resource that holds enormous potential for U.S. economic and energy security.”

      • brucefast Says:

        The north slope has two major issues:
        1 – It currently has no natural gas pipeline to remove the gas with. This issue is being worked on, but its a long slow road to build a pipeline across Alaska, and an LNG plant to ship it. (I believe that the Alaska highway line, which would have gone within miles of me is no longer on the table.)
        2 – The north slope is watched very closely by environmental groups. I think that the above process would bring a lot of notice from them.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        1 – Maybe they can liquify the methane for export, without having to convert it to NatGas.

        2 – The announcement is from DOE Sec Chu, the ultimate greenie.

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy, actually they are looking at liquifying and selling off shore. They outlawed coal turbines and are in the process of shutting them down, but not to worry all the coal is being shipped to the west coast for shipment to China. They need cheap energy to compete. Our energy policy is being done by crazy people.

  101. Bob Says:

    Here is a link to a study on Wind Turbines. It shows that the air around wind turbines increase. There is concern being voiced

    A while back I posed the question about LENR heat being an issue and the feeling that it wouldn’t be an issue. I think we may have to rethink the subject.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I think increased waste heat from cheap is more than offset by low cost and low pollution. Criticizing a heating device because it produces heat is like condemning life because it results in death.

      • Bob Says:

        I totally agree, but if they are concerned about Wind Mills, it will be a huge argument from those wanting to kill LENR.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Arguing with a greenie is futile, just like arguing with any
      other religious zealot………besides, their heat don’t stink.

  102. Anony Mole Says:

    On crude oil price manipulation

    Here’s an insidious (theoretical) scenario:

    What if China could use the announcement of viable LENR to drive the price of oil down. Once down, they would then begin to purchase up all the surplus capacity and reserves made unprofitable by the artificially low price of oil. They could also negotiate and lock in rock bottom prices with the top oil producing, profit-dependent, countries: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria, the UAE, Venezuela, Kuwait, etc. Once the ruse was found out – the price of oil shoots back up and China is sitting fat and happy on extra oil capacity and below market prices.

    The announcement of viable, sustainable, commercially producible LENR from China would rock the world. If they announced they were building and deploying LENR reactors the world’s energy markets would tremble. Extrapolating out the impact of this announcement – the price of crude oil would plummet to half or less of its current price.

    Many oil fields, reserves, resources and producers are now dependent on the price of oil being over $50 – $80 dollars per barrel to remain profitable. If the price of oil falls below these prices, many marginal oil operations will become unprofitable and will be forced to close. China swoops in with a huge checking account and buys them up.

    Most oil producing countries are economically dependent on the high price of oil. Their domestic stability is directly tied to the constant influx of oil export income. Not only do they need this income to support their economies but need it to maintain insanely low domestic fuel costs through subsidies. Without it they will most likely fail as nations. China would offer a fixed price of $75 per barrel for 10 years and these countries would snap that deal up.

    Is this beyond China’s government to pull off? Would it have such an affect? Are there other countries that could do the same? Sure sounds like a Tom Clancy novel no?

    • Bob Says:

      ou have an interesting theory, but history has not been kind to those trying to corner the market. The Hunt Brothers tried it with Silver and paid dearly.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        China has a lot more clout than the Hunt brothers, but a Western cartel could retaliate by promoting real LENR conversion, but China could cause a lot of short term chaos. China might suffer a net loss from damaging their best customers. China would best prosper from a real LENR revolution because it would neutralize the US’s current low energy cost position with its nat gas glut.

      • Bob Says:

        The natural gas glut will soon disappear. Obama issued an executive order a few weeks ago that puts gas production under regulatory control. The Fracking that has created wonders is trying to be outlawed by the EPA. They recently lost in court, as the data presented showed they were wrong, but rest assured they will curtail and drive prices up.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – I think that China would run into the same problems as all the other experimenters. Until they sell something that actually does what they say, there’ll be no effect on the price of oil other than a short-term blip as the more credulous people get out of it. It needs real devices being sold to really shake the market, and even then (as we’ve calculated here before) it’ll take a decade or more for enough machines to get changed over to reduce the world’s thirst for oil.

      I think that China would not want to suffer the loss of face involved in announcing such a thing as viable LENR unless they were certain it worked as advertised.

      • Bob Says:

        Here is a link from the Vortex that shows the hiring that defkalion is trying. It truly looks like they are getting serious about ramping for manufacturing. Lets hope this is true as the breakthrough could be closer than many think

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, you might consider establishing a new user-name for this blog in the event that you start work with Def. We’d hate to lose your commentary.

        I bet homes are cheap in Greece now. Greek homes don’t need central heat, just a shot of ouzo. When I visited Athens in 1980, you could buy ouzo on the street, drinking from a community glass. I doubt any germ survived. They also sold a tasty hot meat sandwich cooked on a hibachi. Years later I asked a friend who lived for years in Greece what the meat was. He said, “Hot Dog, literally”.

  103. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Let’s pop the biggest bubble.
    “With over 3,100 videos on everything from arithmetic to physics, finance, and history and hundreds of skills to practice, we’re on a mission to help you learn what you want, when you want, at your own pace.”–part-12

  104. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    From the wisest blogger on batteries and electric vehicles, IMHO.
    “A Toyota (TM) Prius uses a 1.4 kWh battery pack to save the average driver about 160 gallons of gas per year. A General Motors (GM) Volt uses a 16 kWh battery pack to save the average driver about 300 gallons of gas per year. A Nissan (NSANY.PK) Leaf needs a 24 kWh battery pack to save the average driver about 400 gallons of gas per year. Depending on the buyer’s range anxiety quotient, a Tesla (TSLA) Model S will use a 40, 60 or 85 kWh battery pack to save the average driver about 400 gallons of gas per year.

    The hard reality is that the marginal utility of batteries plummets the instant you add a plug. I understand that there are differences between the batteries used by different manufacturers, but those differences can’t justify the marginal utility cliff in the following table.”

    • Bob Says:

      I personally don’t see gas/battery hybrids as winning out in the long-run. Unless batteries make huge jumps, they will be pushed out by fuel cells and Super Capacitors. Maybe a Cold Fusion type battery will emerge, but I still would bet on some energy device winning out in the end. I think the next ten years will sort this out, but in the meantime its not obvious and a lot of money will be wasted.

      The comments on Tesla’s finances are interesting. I read once that they were filling for bankruptcy and the next thing I know they were working on new models. I never tracked the money source, but I would bet government.

  105. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Light created from the void
    Reported demonstration of dynamical Casimir effect is significant milestone
    By Devin Powell
    Web edition : Friday, June 3rd, 2011

    LET THERE BE …Light created from quantum fluctuations in empty space — colored on this chart according to the light’s intensity (with yellow most intense) — confirms a decades-old theory that could have implications for black holes.C.M. Wilson et al/

    Calling forth light from the void was once an act of biblical proportions. Now all it takes is a bit of smoke and mirrors provided by the laws of quantum mechanics.

    By creating particles of light from seeming nothingness, an international team of researchers has confirmed an idea first proposed in 1970.

    According to quantum physics, empty space isn’t actually empty. Even a vacuum contains energy, tiny fluctuations that can be thought of as virtual waves or virtual particles flitting in and out of existence.

    These fluctuations exert a force. Put two mirrors close together in a vacuum, and some of the virtual waves will be too long to fit between them. A pressure — analogous to the pressure that crumples a water bottle with some of its air sucked out — pushes the mirrors toward each other. This static Casimir effect already has been measured by several scientists.

    But like Pinocchio, the virtual particles long to become real. Their Blue Fairy is an accelerating mirror, which separates pairs of virtual particles and provides the energy needed to turn them into real particles of light, or photons. Christopher Wilson of the Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg, Sweden, and colleagues now claim to have produced such photons for the first time.

    “We expect this effect, the dynamical Casimir effect, to be there,” says Larry Ford, a theoretical physicist at Tufts University in Medford, Mass., who was not involved in the research. “If it’s not there, that would be a problem. It’s important for quantum field theory.”

    A mirror wobbling back and forth should start to sparkle with photons. But to create a detectable number of photons, the mirror would have to move at a significant fraction of the speed of light — which just isn’t practical.

    “The required accelerations are beyond the types of shocks one encounters in supernova and nuclear weapons explosions,” says Yale physicist Steve Lamoreaux, who was one of the first to accurately measure the static Casimir effect.

    So instead of using a real mirror, Wilson’s team built a circuit called a SQUID, or superconducting quantum interference device. The team exposed a loop of metal to a magnetic field that fluctuated about 11 billion times per second. The loop wobbled electrically — much like a mirror wobbling at 5 percent of the speed of light — and nudged the virtual particles in the vacuum.

    Photons appeared in a special state called two-mode squeezing, a quantum signature of particles created in pairs. Wilson and his colleagues reported their experiment in a paper posted online May 24 at, but they declined an interview request, citing policies of a journal now reviewing the research for publication.

    “This is great work, probably one of the best Casimir papers in the last 40 years,” says Lamoreaux.

    The results should reassure scientists trying to detect Hawking radiation, energy predicted to be given off by black holes. The same quantum principles that give mirrors their extra sparkle should also make black holes glow.

  106. Bob Says:

    I wonder how easy it is to see. I would have been great to see a picture. The frequency they switch the magnetic field is impressive. I would love to see a write up on how that was achieved.
    Science is getting kind of Freaky these days. Cool!

  107. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Totally off-topic, but neat nonetheless:

    Imagine one of these powered by LENR and not needing refuelling for a few months! This could make the current spy drones redundant/outdated very quickly.

  108. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Those quadrotors are amazing. Will likely revolutionize warfare and police work.

    “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.” – Mohammad Ali

  109. Bob Says:

    The drug enforcement have used these to record people by hovering over their heads. This has been used by the poperotcy (sp) to fly in Hollywood’s back yards and view in upper story windows. The law has not caught up with the technology.
    A few years back, I toyed with opening an obstacle coarse that rented these out or put lasers on them for pretend dog fights.
    The military has small drones that carry small bombs that they use suicide drones against enemy positions. That has just started.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Of course, the military will need to keep up with the defense against such SkyNet style autonomous infiltration machines. A directed electromagnetic beam or pulse gun would be handy. Wipe out the electronics in such devices (including the drones that will soon be circling your neighborhood). Remember in Oceans Eleven where they used a “pinch” to generate a EMP? We’ll all need one handy if our police state gets any worse.

  110. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Another use for cavitation:

    Nice to know if you can’t find the corkscrew.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Here’s a thought. Head to the Mariana Trench and induce cavitation there. Just think of the intense pressures and what they might do on bubble collapse. If there was some sort of natural phenomena that was producing cavitation bubbles, glued to the minerals and what not down there, maybe we’ve had transmutation occurring since day one.

    • Bob Says:

      Simon, I sent this to my daughter and as it happens she had a friend that spoke french so they got more than the video. They tried it and it worked!

  111. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I gotta try that.

    Question: Is the regasification of dissolved gases in divers that ascend too rapidly, i.e. “the bends”, also a form of cavitation?

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – the bends (also known as caisson disease) is a sort of cavitation as the gases come out of solution. The bubbles just appear anywhere in the body. The difference is that they don’t go away again unless the body is again subjected to enough pressure to force the gas back into solution. Painful.

      By the same token, the bubbles in a carbonated drink (such a Coke) are going to produce some interesting high frequencies in the liquid. I’m sure there must be an interesting use of this, but can’t think of it.

  112. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    E-Cat secret revealed.

  113. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    In Chemical Reactions, Water Adds Speed Without Heat

    ScienceDaily (May 17, 2012) — An international team of researchers has discovered how adding trace amounts of water can tremendously speed up chemical reactions — such as hydrogenation and hydrogenolysis — in which hydrogen is one of the reactants, or starting materials.

    In their research, Mavrikakis and Besenbacher drew on their respective theoretical and experimental expertise to study metal oxides, a class of materials often used as catalysts or catalyst supports. They found that the presence of even the most minute amounts of water — on the order of those in an outer-space vacuum — can accelerate the diffusion of hydrogen atoms on iron oxide by 16 orders of magnitude at room temperature. In other words, water makes hydrogen diffuse 10,000 trillion times faster on metal oxides than it would have diffused in the absence of water. Without water, heat is needed to speed up that motion.
    via vortex

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – useful information, thanks. It’s extremely hard to avoid traces of water in any situation, though, so in practice it will always be there doing its job. This may well have a bearing on dry LENR, though.

  114. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Simple homebuilt Stirling engine…powered by the heat of your hand(on a cold day).

  115. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Electricity generated from water: BlackLight Power announces validation of its scientific breakthrough in energy production

    • Bob Says:

      I always had a big question mark on BlackLight with all the money raised and no product over such a long time. This with outside validation looks like it could be real. I hope his 1.5KW generator becomes reality.

  116. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    The End of Moore’s Law
    Most people are familiar with Moore’s Law, which states that computer chips double their capacity about every 18 months. But how many people know that it will one day cease to exist? That’s because real laws, such as those that govern physics, will overtake Moore’s Law sometime in the 2020’s. In his new book Physics of the Future theoretical physicist Michio Kaku describes exactly why this will happen. Today chips are created by shining UV light on a silicon wafer and then bathing it in acid to create circuits containing millions of transistors. Kaku further explains:

    “But this process cannot go on forever. At some point, it will be physically impossible to etch transistors the size of atoms. You can even calculate roughly when Moore’s law will finally collapse: when you finally hit transistors the size of individual atoms. Around 2020 or so Moore’s law will cease to exist. (Page 39)”

    • Bob Says:

      Iggy, I’m not convinced that it will end as Kaku states. Scientists have material breakthroughs that make transistors with about a tenth of the number of atoms and most companies are looking at third dimensional structures by stacking transistors, so there is still a lot of headroom for growth, but it is coming at ever increasing costs.

      The fabrication process is an issue, but I have trust that new methods will be devized to meet the new geometries. They said the same thing back in the 80’s than when we hit today’s geometries it would not be possible to build transistors, but no one told Silicon Valley!

      Its a very interesting conversation issue!

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – Moore’s Law doesn’t assume very much – it was an observation of trends and an extrapolation of them. People are working on three-dimensional fabrication, and of course when you have two layers of components in a die the thickness increases by a small amount but you get double the processing capacity. I reckon Moore’s Law will continue for quite a few more years with Silicon as people work out how to get to hundreds of vertical layers. I can also note here that UV light is not the limit in resolution – people are using X-ray lithography to get smaller dimensions.

      A more limiting factor is the software used to drive them. With millions of lines of code, the probability of logical errors rises somewhat. Testing such code to eliminate bugs in all possible scenarios is just not possible in a commercially-viable time, so we’ll have very fast, very small computers that mostly give the right answers.

  117. Anony Mole Says:

    A sentiment shift.

    A sentiment shift appears to have occurred in the blogs and LSM, (left stream media) regarding LENR. The skeptic’s voices are subdued and a general level of acceptance seems to have permeated the articles and blog posts. By all indications it looks like people have moved from debating the “if” of LENR to discussing the when, where, and by whom.

    On this site these assumptions have always been made. Rather than discuss the contingent questions, we’ve discussed the potential uses and impact that LENR will have on the world. The topic of the potential of LENR is now bubbling up in the LSM, whereas this site has always focused on that topic.

    Buried in this site are thoughtful, reasonable and prescient topics that deserve to be disinterred and made topical once again. We’ve got great content we’ve all contributed to in here. How can we demonstrate that although the LSM has just started to delve into this subject, Bruce and his foresight and the rest of us and ours have “been there, done that.” Done that and done it well.

    Exhume the posts of the past. Compile and consolidate them into a vision of the future. A future that appears to be unfolding just as Brucetradamus has foretold.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – saying “I told you so!” never wins friends or influences people. The value of this blog, therefore, is that people who are inclined to accept that it’s real have had more time to prepare their response to the coming changes, and also the exchange of ideas may well have speeded up the developments. It’s noticeable that Brillouin brought out their “hot tube” design AFTER Iggy put forward the idea of fluidised bed reactors. There’s some hint that Rossi is going that route, too. Maybe there’s parallel thinking going on, but it was publicised here first.

      The exchange of ideas here has hopefully weeded out the scams from the real by presenting all the developments to common scrutiny. Hopefully we’ll live to see the wonderful things happen that NFE promises.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, do you think that possibly one new feature of Rossi’s new 600° E-Cat might be a fluidized bed?

        Even with that feature, the new improved stability probably is due to tweaking the control software.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – there are some hints, one of which is that he is now using 1.5 grams of powder (if you believe what he’s saying, of course). The increased gas-flow and greater ease of control of the temperature by that gas-flow would make the control very much simpler and more stable. The time-lag is fractions of a second rather than maybe minutes with solid powders, so no predictive control needed, just reactive control (which is probably what he was using before, since writing the software to predict things implies the programmer knows exactly how it works).

        I’m fairly sure (since it’s hard to check details) that maybe a month or so after your idea was published that Brillouin started to say they’d got something similar in their Hot Tube, and then about a month after that Rossi had his breakthrough. I’m not claiming these things are causally related, but it certainly was a good idea.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        I’m not familiar with Iggy’s “fluidized bed” concept. What I thought Godes at Brillouin was doing was to pulse the energy into the electrodes to control the reaction. Is this not correct? Do you have the reference to the fluidized bed idea so that I can catch up?

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – it was a bit further up in “Post” at and the few following ones. Starting 2nd March.

        How you excite the Nickel/Hydrogen mix is not that relevant, really, since the main problem has been getting the heat out of the system quick enough to avoid runaway and thus meltdown.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Here’s a video which illustrates a fluidized bed.

  118. Simon Derricutt Says:

    For those who haven’t seen it, check where if it’s true then Rossi has made his breakthrough. Not enough detail, maybe, but promises of webcam video streams.

  119. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Maybe old news by now, but may be interesting once LENR is available and you want something to use that electricity while you aren’t needing it.
    Here he’s using Lithium hydride to store the Hydrogen, but a Nickel/Iron alloy would also work, just be heavier.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      The fellow in the video, Bob Lazar, is quite a controversial man.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Not only that, but the aside on the site talks about REEs and the fact that what was $10k is now $45k in materials. China did indeed corner the REE market, but other rare earth miners have started to pick up the shovel again. And although, like the gold mining and junior mining sector, they’ve seen a continuous drop in stock prices, I’d posit that the bottom is in and they’ll start to turn around now.

      Rare earths will no doubt play a huge part in the application of NFE as high tech generators and motors use these in the tons. And this sector may actually be one to own in the coming years as we hopefully enter an era of local energy generation and consumption.

  120. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Iggy – yes, another person whose educational accolades are disputed, but the car itself can presumably be tested. It looks like it just works, and the original kit price was not unreasonable (not too high or too low). I sent him an email pointing out Titanium/Iron alloys as a substitute – might help if he hasn’t investigated them.

    Anony – I’m pretty sure that the States has more than enough rare earths, but it wasn’t worth mining them since importing from China was much cheaper. In the States it costs a lot more because it’s more regulated as to what state you leave the land in afterwards. Those open-cast mines in China look somewhat lunar for many years afterwards, and probably produce a lot of dust to windward, too. Someone else’s backyard….

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      It looks like this technology is real – I got a reply:
      Hi Simon,

      Yes, FeTi Hydride is readily available – you can even buy it in tanks ready to go.
      The problem is that a full size tank only holds about 700 to 900 liters of Hydrogen gas – and costs over $1,500.00.
      That will run a car for about 4 minutes.
      It also can only be recharged only so many times before you have to throw it all away.
      At about $1500 per tank, it will cost a fortune for enough tanks – you’d have to haul a trailer full of 100 tanks to get a typical 350 to 400 mile range.
      Worse is that after only a few months, it will no longer recharge and you have to throw your $150,000.00 worth of FeTi hydride away.
      Our Hydride holds over 50,000 liters of Hydrogen in the same size tank, and we’ve cycled it for over 12 years with only a 12% loss in storage capacity.
      They are very different materials.

      -United Nuclear Scientific
      9607 E. Price Rd.
      Laingsburg, MI. 48848
      Customer Service:
      Technical Support:

      —–Original Message—–
      From: simon derricutt
      Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 9:59 AM
      Subject: Hydrogen storage

      Hi Mr. Lazar,

      If this suggestion is one you’ve already thought of and discarded, please excuse the ignorance.

      I’ve seen data on Hydrogen storage using a Titanium/Iron alloy (made mechanically in a ball-mill) that would certainly be cheaper and more easily available than Lithium. It’s going to be heavier for the same capacity, but otherwise would seem to be as good. The main advantage would be cost, thus making the conversion kits more affordable – back to your original price-point. Keeping the Lithium version available would also be good, as an option.

      If you need the files I can email them, but you should be able to find enough details on the net.

      Best regards, Simon Derricutt


      OK, as my reading of what Bob Lazar is getting at is that he has a really solid technology for storage of Hydrogen, and has a decade of experience with it. It seems strange that this hasn’t taken off yet – in California there’s normally a lot of sun and the rules on carbon use are pretty draconian. I’ll do another post on Chiefio’s blog about this a bit later at If you haven’t read this yet (Bob pointed me at this) it’s a useful resource especially if you have an interest in the AGW debate and want the real figures.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, I have no reason to doubt Lazar’s credentials.
        If Lazar worked at Area 51 he’s in a position to know weird stuff.

        My late wife’s cousin lived in Roswell, NM and her husband, Chuck, a medical doctor, was good friends with the famous mortician, Glenn Dennis, that claimed to see the aliens retrieved from the UFO. Chuck believed Dennis’ story.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – one of the thing Google brought up was the Wiki entry, which without actually stating it outright strongly implies that Bob Lazar is full of hot air and claiming qualifications he isn’t entitled to, and thus by implication all his claims will be invalid too. Looking at the other data on his site, and then getting such a confident answer from him, it seems to me he is simply stating what he can do and that this is established technology for him. I feel that Lazar has severely pissed-off someone who writes for Wiki.

        If I’m right on this, then Lazar has the key technology to make a Hydrogen economy viable, with maybe LENR doing the Hydrogen production and then the Hydrogen being used where we now use liquid or gaseous fuels. Hydrogen can be produced in many other ways too, and the main problem has always been storage.

        Lazar’s claims for efficiency of storage can be proved by a simple 400-mile drive – once he gets some customers even this will not be needed as the absence of complaints will be deafening. The real advantage is that he can convert a standard car to use Hydrogen, so there’s no massive replacement of machinery needed, especially as the car will still run on petrol (gasoline) if you go too far from a filling-point.
        I hope he gets his materials cheaper – the kit would still be useful for house heating, and may well be a fix for Bruce and his heating-oil costs. As far as I know, any gas-burner would just need a finer jet than Natural Gas – when the UK was converted to Natural Gas in the pipes rather than that mixture of H2, CO and CO2 we called “town gas” they simply put bigger jets in my mum’s cooker.

  121. Bob Says:

    Hear is an interesting subject relating to patents in the US. This could greatly affect LENR patents. Not sure what I think of this. We need to better protect our IP, but not sure if this is the way to go. How do you avoid infringement if you don’t know whats in it.

  122. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Simon, more likely, Lazar’s sin was to spill the beans on Area 51.

    When Pres Jimmy Carter asked the truth on Roswell, he was reportedly told, “Sorry Mr President, but you don’t have a ‘Need to Know’.”

    The late Col Corso claimed that many of the scientific and industrial breakthroughs of the 40s and 50s were the result of back-engineering materials found at the Roswell crash.

    The Day After Roswell

    The Day After Roswell

    Buy from Amazon

    Do I believe Corso? I believe him as much as I believe my govt.

    Regarding the rare earth shortage, Lynas Corporation has just started processing ree in their new plant in Malaysia. The ore is mined in Australia.

  123. Anony Mole Says:

    If the price of REEs have shot through the roof, then what explains the continuous drop in the prices of all the REE mining companies?
    Lynas is also a primary component of the REE ETF: no price improvement there.
    In fact, I’d bet that if you want to build wind turbine generators right now, the price will be cheaper than it has been for some years:

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Maybe the market is worried about the shaky world economy and the possibility of lower demand for REEs. They also may be waiting for non-Chinese producers to demonstrate that they can produce profitably. There was talk that before the price increase that the Chinese producers were operating below cost, perhaps subsidized by the Chinese govt.

    • Bob Says:

      Japan has found a supply of rare earth elements in the pacific that will alleviate much of the issue.

      The US has closed mines with plenty of ore, but initially they couldn’t compete with Chinese prices and the ever present EPA issues. There are attempts being made to reopen, but its a battle with the EPA on any mining. Nevada and Utah are where they are located.

      Japan has also produced a synthetic that works for their magnets in motors problem.

  124. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    If the UL never certifies the E-Cat for home use, I’m wondering what the requirements will be for “industrial E-Cats”, besides money? Could you use a small industrial unit located 50′ or 100′ from your house? Could you and a dozen or so neighbors buy and operate a big unit to supply yourselves with heat and electricity, and sell the balance to the grid?

  125. Bob Says:

    Here is an email I received today from Italy. This has gone through Google translate, so I can’t vouch for the accuracy. The wording implies an electrical generator output. I wonder if that’s what was really being said”

    “You have received this email because you registered to the mailing list for updates on the development project of Prof. Piantelli LENR.

    Squidoo will soon start raising funds to support the project of Prof. Piantelli LENR.
    The collection will be managed by an association that will collect accessions with various depths (approximately 100 – 200 – 300 -500 -1000 euros).
    These fees will add up to the achievement of 50,000 or 100,000 euros in order to acquire a share of the company Metalenergy which holds the exclusive license for the European power generators made ​​between 101Watt and 7 kW.

    The money will be used directly to fund the laboratory for the development of such generators (already under construction) and will then be rewarded with royalties from the sale of generatoti themselves or license granted over the whole European territory.

    Just the whole aspect of bureaucratic organization is ready you can pay dues.
    You will be contacted for a short time (August-September) and you’ll receive all the material necessary to evaluate the project and your support.

    I hope that you shall have done something to please.”

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Bob – I think “generator” here is simply a heat generator, not an electrical one. Since Piantelli was the progenitor of both Rossi and Defkalion, I would hope that they have improved on their technology in the last 2 decades. Worth watching, anyway.

  126. Anony Mole Says:

    Space. The LENR frontier. These are the voyages of the starship LENRprise. Its ongoing mission, to explore and populate the Moon, asteroid belt and Mars.

    Without LENR or something like it, humanity may never populate the solar system. There’s just not enough kerosene, or chemical propellent to burn trying to get rockets into orbit. With LENR sure we can split water and use H2 and O to burn for launch vehicles. But once in orbit, travel out to the belt and to Mars (and back) for hundreds and thousands of trips will be impossible without millions of tons of fuel, or water if you like. Even with LENR propellent will be a problem. We still need “stuff” to squirt out the back of a rocket to shove spacecraft out to our local destinations. It’s not going to be efficient to launch fuel up to rockets – not for the thousands of trips we’ll be making in the next 50 years. We’ll need to use a fuel that is local – to space.

    The only fuel out there is Moon rock and asteroids.

    There’s an article on TechnologyReview about using lasers to ablate asteroids, namely Apophis, to redirect them away from an Earth collision. Hmm, I thought. Why not attach LENR devices to such asteroids and then use their NFE energy to convert asteroid material to propellent fuel. LENR could even power embedded lasers that would vaporize rock which in turn would result in propulsion.

    The problem I see with LENR, in its current configuration, is that the reaction produces heat. Heat works great on Earth, which can be used as a huge heat sink to drive the Carnot cycle. But in space, there is no heat sink. An asteroid would be a nice heat sink though… Without a heat sink a LENR based energy source would require considerable heat dissipation engineering to produce the temperature differential required to drive the steam generation cycle.

    This or either we get solid state electricity generation directly from the LENR core. LENR heat -> electricity will be the ticket. Or could the energy radiating from the LENR reaction itself be directed out a rocket nozzle?

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – if you have the energy, then anything can be used as reaction-mass to propel a space-vehicle. Note that LENR tends to be low-temperature, and you can see why people would prefer to use fission/fusion as the heat-source – apart from the radiation problems it’s a better engineering solution since the temperatures are really high.

      The easiest reaction-mass would be a comet, since there’s a lot of water in it. Rock does tend to be a bit harder to vaporise. With water, a steam-rocket with LENR would be viable, but not particularly powerful. Considering the differences in travel time under even a slight constant acceleration/deceleration, though, this would be worth it.

      At the moment, the trip to Mars is billed as around a year, but with a constant acceleration/deceleration of just 1/1000g this could be cut to around 145 days, at 1/100g it’s 45.9 days, at 1/10g it’s 14.5 days and at 1g (most comfortable for astronauts) it is only 4.59 days. Pluto being around 50 times as far as Mars would only take around 7 times as long. Figures from Bob Heinlein!

      Blacklight’s tech seems to me to be LENR that produces electricity. If they sort this out, then the laser ablation of an asteroid would certainly be good at propelling it. At the moment NASA have found that light-pressure from the Sun needs to be taken into account in working out the orbits of such asteroids as Apophos (I didn’t bookmark that bit of data) so any propulsion at all will add up to appreciable movement of the orbit.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Maybe they could piggyback on an asteroid who’s orbit passes near the destination, and mine some goodies along the way, but that might take longer than acceleration/deceleration. We could make it a one-way trip and send volunteer prisoners. We could call the mission Savannah II.

        Hey, I made the Italian press.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – maybe better to hollow out the asteroid and live inside it for the time – better protection against cosmic rays. It might not look like a traditional starship (more like a potato with a motor attached) but it could be far more convenient. Why launch all that mass from Earth when there’s so much floating around up there unused? Tunnelling can be done while it’s moving, so that the increase in population could be accommodated. Not too long ago there was work being done on self-replicating robots, and so the robotic workforce could increase exponentially to speed things up.

        This sort of thing is currently technically feasible, but needs the first steps to be taken.

        Congratulation on being noticed in Italy. Keep asking the directed questions, and maybe some people will end up doing logical things.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        If I could have a mythical lunch with just one author – it would be Robert A. Heinlein. My youth and future self was deeply influenced by that man.

        Just watched the movie Prometheus. Without a LENR like NFE to power all those cool gadgets not to mention the ship itself, we humans are rock stuck.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – same here about Heinlein. Sci-fi (at least the interesting ones) speculates on what technology will be available, and its effects on human lives. A lot of that technology seems likely to evolve, so we can be prepared when it appears and have maybe a better idea of how to use it best. Heinlein was good at his analyses of what human structures may turn up – he gave us something to aim for as well as a lot of things better avoided (but probably won’t be).

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I never read any scifi novels but did watch the end of an “Indiana Jones” movie last night (the one with the crystal skulls), and anti-gravity looks like the ticket.

  127. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    We could send up tunneling robots on this pass with the expectation that by the next pass, the interior would be ready for habitation. Aren’t some asteroids so-called dirty ice? Dirty ice would provide water and HHO, and would be really easy to melt out a hollow.

    The Italians lost my meaning in translation. I suggested that Rossi become a wholesale electric utility, to better protect his intellectual property. I never suggested that he sell electricity directly to the public. He would encounter too much opposition if he tried to compete with the retail utilities. By going wholesale he would gain the support of the retail utilities.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – the dirty ice certainly gives you easy reaction mass and easy tunnelling, but if it passed us it would be called a comet since it would form a tail of particulate matter (dust) and water-vapour. It would only make a good habitat somewhat further from the Sun. Better maybe to get a rocky or metallic one and lasso a dirty ice one for reaction mass.

      This sort of thing sounds like sci-fi now, but it’s possible with today’s technology and will probably happen in our lifetimes. It’s just too cost-effective to just forget about it.

      Your IPP idea sounds a good way to make a profit – feed-in rates are normally pretty high, so while that subsidy lasts it’s a good idea. Even without the subsidy it should be very profitable. Worth remembering for when we have a working LENR-based generator.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Steven N. Karels
        June 19th, 2012 at 3:38 AM

        Dear Andrea Rossi,

        From Wikipedia – “Water, while under pressure, is heated up to a high temperature (approx. 250-500 °C). As the hot water goes through the nozzle (usually a de Laval nozzle) and the pressure reduces, the water flashes to steam pressing on the nozzle, and leaving at high speed. By the recoil the rocket accelerates in the opposite direction to the steam. The nozzle of hot water rockets must be able to withstand high pressure, high temperatures and the particularly corrosive nature of hot water.

        The simplest design has a pressurised water tank where the water is heated before launch, however, this gives a very low exhaust velocity since the high latent heat of vapourisation means that very little actual steam is produced and the exhaust consists mostly of water, or if high temperatures and pressures are used, then the tank is very heavy.

        More complex designs can involve passing the water through pumps and heat exchangers and employing nuclear reactors or solar heating, it is estimated that these can give a specific impulse of over 195 s Isp, still below the up to 465 s a modern hydrogen engines deliver. Solar or nuclear heated steam rockets have been proposed for use in interplanetary travel. Although the performance is low, high mass fractions are easy to achieve, and water is expected to be very easy to extract and purify from ice deposits that are found around the solar system.

        Andrea Rossi
        June 19th, 2012 at 4:44 AM

        Dear Steven N. Karels:
        Interesting, thank you.
        Warm Regards,

    • Bob Says:

      Iggy, I think a good business model is to sell MW units to small towns. Each town could sell a bond to cover the expense for installation. The city then maintains and runs the plant hiring a local. The city sells the electricity and pays off the system. With the cost savings possible the system would be paid for in a few years and would then be a revenue generator for the city.
      As these little towns came to be, the load on the grid would decrease and power companies could start dropping their old inefficient plants.
      This could be a great business for a small group of business investors, likewise, a good business in servicing the towns in an area would be another good business.
      All one needs is working units that can be bought in volume.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Bob, I agree…small towns would be a good market. That’s how WalMart succeeded, did the small towns, where there was little competition and then took on the cities.

        My idea, though, is not to sell devices. Retain ownership and sell the power, thereby retaining better control of industrial secrets. There is already a wholesale electric market in place.

        Another good market would be universities. Many universities operate their own co-generation system.

  128. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Bruce – this is starting to get somewhat long. Is there a chance of getting a “post2″ section set up so it takes less bandwidth? It seems we have a lot to say that’s off-topic, but still interesting.

    Overall, though, things do seem to be somewhat quiet at the moment. Krivit is somewhat short on comments, too.

  129. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    A Novel Paper Sensor for the Detection of Pancreatic Cancer
    Jack Andraka
    North County High School, Glen Burnie, MD
    Pancreatic cancer is a devastating disease with a five-year survival rate of 5.5%. One reason for this is the lack of a rapid, sensitive, inexpensive screening method. A novel paper sensor is described that simply, rapidly and inexpensively screens for pancreatic cancer. Mia Paca cells overexpressing mesothelin, a biomarker for pancreatic cancer, were cultured; mesothelin was isolated, concentrated and quantified with ELISA. After optimization with the Western Blot assay, the antibody to human mesothelin was dispersed with single walled carbon nanotubes. This dispersion was used to dip-coat strips of filter paper, rendering the paper conductive. Optimal layering was determined using a scanning electron microscope. Cell media spiked with varying amounts of mesothelin was applied to the paper biosensor. Change in electrical potential was measured before and after application and a dose-response curve was constructed with an R2 value of 99.92%. In vivo tests on human blood serum obtained from healthy people and patients with chronic pancreatitis, PanIn, pancreatic cancer revealed the same trends.. The sensor’s limit of detection was found to be 0.156 ng/mL, satisfying the limit of 10 ng/mL, the level considered an overexpression of mesothelin consistent with pancreatic cancer. The sensor costs $3.00; 10 tests can be performed per strip. A test takes 5 minutes and is 168 times faster, 26,667 times less expensive, and 400 times more sensitive than ELISA, 25% to 50% more accurate than the CA10-9 test and is a sensitive, accurate, inexpensive, and rapid screening tool to detect mesothelin, a biomarker for pancreatic cancer.
    Jack Andraka, the inventor, is 15 years old, and won a $75,000 prize from Intel.

    I lost 2 friends to pancreatic cancer this past year. I lost my late wife to ovarian cancer in 2009.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Iggy, another venue that might work more optimally for interesting but off-topic threads than a trailing post in NicklePower would be to use Google+. I’ve got a couple of accounts and creating a circle for just LENR advocates would be easy – if we all were to show up using the service. Just a suggestion.

  130. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Good idea. I’ve never been to google+, although I use gmail.

    One reason I posted about the kid inventing the cancer test was that he used nanotubes and we just had a discussion about JARO on vortex speculating that Rossi was using nanotubes in the E-Cat.

    Another point, the kid contacted 200 academics and it was about #198 before he found one to help him pursue the development of his idea.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I do post LENR news on facebook but I rarely get a comment. There is one fb friend, a scientist & former astronaut, who is mildly interested and hopeful, but mostly politely skeptical.

  131. Simon Derricutt Says:

    A bit of politics here – Lord Monckton on the Rio+20 conference.

    Maybe there’s hope for governments after all.

  132. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Thanks Simon. Lord Monckton is a voice of reason. Enjoyed hearing him spill the beans on watermelons.

  133. Anony Mole Says:

    Bruce, now is not the time to fall off the wagon. has a LENR presence out there. If you need help or need to share the admin of this puppy – just say so, I’m sure one or three of us could pitch in. We’ve got lots to say still, and would rather say it here, but we need to know the content will make the front page and get some turnover.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – there isn’t that much happening at the moment. Rossi is talking about his new system, and we could discuss that, but very little real news is around at the moment. As usual, there’s a lot of air but no substance with Rossi’s announcements. It’s good news if it’s true, but there’s no demonstration of something working yet.

      As it happens, NET has been short of both articles and comments for the last couple of months – it’s one of those slow times. That in itself could be good news, in that people are head down and working at it rather than talking. Still – Post is where you add a new subject, and we’re all able to add here. It doesn’t have to be Bruce. He may be working on getting his own experiment sorted….

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Simon, regardless of the no new news consideration, there are still points to be explored that deserve a high note acknowledgement. General media treatment – Popular Science is apparently about to do an article on LENR, the recent petroleum industry article, the William and Mary conference, the up and comming ICCF-17 in Korea, so lot’s of stuff actually. But that has nothing to do with not maintaining a top 20 position in the minds of LENR blog posting sites.

  134. Bob Says:

    We seem to have hit a lull in information flow regarding LENR, so I will post on something that I feel is happening and LENR will have a big impact how this plays out.

    I believe we have reached a point in society where we have way to many people for the jobs available. Man has relentlessly worked to improve productivity and in doing so has continued to put people out of work, typically the manufacturing or lower skilled workers. I believe the jobs will not come back and we will be faced with an ever growing populace that will rely on the government for their well being. The inner cities reached this point years ago, but now the middle class is being squeezed by automation and outsourcing. Will continued flow of jobs away from the people, what do they do? The 20th century I believe was an anomaly in time, where a large middle class developed. This lasted for a century, but is now on the downside of the miracle revolution. Technology is removing jobs faster than new business and the associated opportunities can overcome.

    Present day society is reverting back to the way it has always been, the money and power is in the hands of the banks and Titans of industry with the middle class disappearing and their ranks are falling to the low end poverty portion of society. I believe the standard of living has peaked and people will be in disbelief as to how well people lived in the 20th century.

    A lot of people inherently sense what is going on, but do not put the right words about the situation and what is occurring. Will the country degrade and peoples life styles drop until we reach the new poor with the few rich. I suspect a society that is accustomed to so much more will not go silently into the night. We presently have 48% of the people getting money from the government and many are getting comfortable with this lifestyle, they don’t have much, but then again they don’t have to do much. We are creating a large group happy to subsist of the government. On the other side of the coin we have the people who presently work, but are being squeezed by government regulation and increasing taxes. These people are finding it harder and harder to survive and they will start slipping into the poor camp. At some point the burden on the few to produce and support the rest will collapse. Why bother will be the sentiment of the day and they will just quit and go along like the rest. This will result in total collapse and all wealth will be lost to even the rich, as nothing they own will have value or can be held from the masses which will just take what they want. Society will degrade and it will get ugly.

    If I’m right, there is very little time left to figure out how to create work and value for the masses. We need a new political and business solution to fend off what is coming. Everything I think of comes out looking like a socialist solution and those have never worked long term. I keep searching for a new model that gives everyone the ability to add value. Maybe if energy is very cheap, the whole structure of society can be remolded and small businesses can once again compete. It just seems like someone could think of a way to save society from reverting.

    No answers, just questions as I believe a tipping point in humanity is at hand.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Bob, your observation that the 20th century was an anomaly, at least as far as the U.S. is concerned, may indeed prove true. The convergence of so many contributing factors set a perfect stage for what the U.S. became last century:

      • The destruction of all the major industrial countries, Germany, Italy, Britain, Japan, Russia – no competition from them for decades.
      • The expansion of fossil fuels as feedstock (plastic, chemicals, fertilizer), and as energy fuel.
      • The birth of the car.
      • The birth of air flight.
      • The birth of the transistor.
      • The discovery and use of life saving drugs, penicillin, etc.

      All of these and more created the perfect storm of progress which settled in over the U.S. and stayed there for half a century. And you’re right, we will probably never see the like again. Well, never say never, something may trigger the next massive progress expansion for humanity – LENR anyone?

      But back to your discussion of the here and now. I look at the job landscape as if it were a pyramid. 200 years ago it was a very flat pyramid. Practically anyone could move to any occupation and be a success. If there was a job opening – pretty much anyone, with a year of training (apprenticeship) or so, could fill the position.

      Moving forward in time, complexity of society increases, law, politics, medicine, manufacturing, engineering all start to require more and more acquired knowledge. Two years, then four, then six or more years of knowledge and domain experience became the requirement. The pyramid is getting taller. Now days, 10 years, 15 years of knowledge and training are required to move one’s field of work forward; to make progress that advances one’s trade.

      And so the pyramid of the job landscape is much taller now, but the top half is not getting filled with applicants. It’s just too arduous to have to spend 10 or more years at a discipline just to build the expertise for the narrowly defined requirements needed at the top. Most of us are stuck in the bottom half – where the jobs are few and dwindling, automation taking many of these. Try telling a college grad with a bachelor degree that he/she has to go on to earn another, and then a masters or two or a PHD in order to fill one of those top spots in the pyramid. They’ll blanch at the task. Ugh! What a painful journey.

      But there are jobs, they’re just beyond the skill set reach of most of the population. A high tech, complex society has high tech complex jobs – and it’s increasingly harder to train for these.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        In my opinion, educational credentials are arbitrary inefficient obstacles. Our educational system in the US is the next bubble ready to pop.

        Bill Gates, had he not given so much of his fortune away would be the world’s richest man. Gates is a college dropout. Gates introduced competency tests for IT. Microsoft doesn’t care how you learned it, but how much you know.

        Most professional educational requirements are not to ensure competency but to limit competition in the field. License requirements are not to protect the public but to limit competition for the trade. Building codes are for the benefit of the taxing authority. The boomingest city in the US is Houston, TX, and Houston has no zoning law. London, England has no building code and the age of buildings in London is measured in centuries, whereas in the US, with building codes, the age of building codes is measured in decades.

        The best way to prepare workers for new complex jobs is with apprentice jobs with online education, with competency tests. Universities are bloated monstrosities with more administrators that teachers. The raison d’etre of the university is power, wealth, and prestige for the administration.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        I’m no fan of the education system in this country. I myself am a college drop out. However, the domain knowledge necessary to advance one’s field, at the top of this pyramid, is so vast now that mere apprenticeship is inadequate. Regardless of how you acquire the knowledge – it must still be acquired to even participate at the top echelons of the highest high of tech, pharma, law, biochem, physics, aeronautics etc.

        You could hold competency tests but no one will pass them. Case in point – Innocentive is a cool site where $ for ideas/results are traded. But just look at the “challenges”: How many years of apprenticeship would it take to learn enough to answer any of those challenges? 10? 20? I can’t even come close to understanding what any of that means on that site.

      • Bob Says:

        @Anony – I think before long books will be written about what happened to the middle class and their will be all sort of theories. To me it is just a return to normal, with the economic drivers being phased out over time. The big problem is what do you do with the people. With automation and robotics many jobs will never be needed again, the few jobs available will require more education and training, as you said. The whole thing with that is we can’t get the masses trained for low level jobs, let alone the increasing sophisticated needs of today.

        We are reverting back to the old norm with the super rich and everyone else, but this time around the job structure has changed and we have to few of jobs to go around and to few that can handle the jobs available. We have huge problem that will manifest itself in social unrest, where that goes is anyone’s guess.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        How does a university work?

        They give reading assignments and provide educators to teach and explain. Most of the teachers are poor communicators. A few are world-class great instructors. You can accomplish all this, more efficiently on line, but using only the great professors.

        MIT is already doing this, providing free online education. When you feel you’re ready to be tested, you pay MIT to test you. If you pass, you’ll be issued a certificate of achievement. Right now, these certificates aren’t worth much in the job market but I predict that some day the certificates will be worth more than a degree because a certificate is evidence of a focused self-starter.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        I know what to do with us surplus 99%’rs, deport us. Emigrate us to Mars, the Moon. Some place where a year or so of training will be useful again. Someplace where the work to knowledge ratio is more like 90:10, rather than the 10:90 that the super skill jobs require today (10 percent work, 90 percent knowledge).

        We need a new frontier. Frontiers are where the average bloke and his family can make a new start with a limited skill set.

        But we can’t get off the planet without, oh, say a new, super cheap energy source…

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Iggy, I like it. Learn on your own, pay for testing. And hopefully deep domain knowledge is some how reflected in the testing. But college is good for one thing – learning how to party!

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        On deportation to Mars…that’s how Savannah, Ga and Australia was settled.

        “If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library. …” – Frank Zappa

      • Bob Says:

        Yes, bloated government with all its regulations is a huge part of the problem, but that alone won’t solve the jobs problem, it just solves the cost problem, or a big chunk of it.

        The old ways of the 50’s in some ways have reversed. Today, many more women are better prepared for office work than men and you can see that in the 60% of college grads now being women and the ever increasing numbers of women out earning their husbands and men raising the kids while the moms work. Women are fitting into the “new” economy better then men, with that social changes are happening. I see evidence of it every day.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        50 years of demonizing men and depicting them on TV as buffoons has had the desired effect. The Progressive Left had to disempower men, because men think for themselves. Female voters can easily be manipulated with slogans, good looks, stylish attire, and promises of givaways. Women will gladly trade freedom for promised security. The fear card motivates women.

        Ever notice the contrast of comments from men and women to a political speech. Women are more likely to comment on a candidate’s good looks, sexiness, smile…while a man comments on issues.

        Women’s Suffrage and the pushbutton car starter were America’s tipping point.

        “The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in
        democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.” – Edward Bernays, ‘The Father of Spin’, nephew of Sigmund Freud.

      • Bob Says:

        @Iggy – Your comments about men is worthy of its own discussion. White men have become the whipping boys for movies and TV and very much evident in commercials. Men are typically portrayed as bumbling idiots that are tolerated by women. Don’t know the reason but its evident in many commercials, the same treatment for many sitcoms.

        In schools boys energetic nature is met with a drug solution. Don’t tolerate any deviation, give them Ritalin. That has reached epidemic proportions.

        Many of the traditional man jobs are disappearing and being replaced by PC work better geared for women. The new office is women centric leading to job advancement and better wages. According to government statistics women make more per hour than men do, but typically men work more hours.

        Young boys don’t build things anymore, they game and don’t socialize like in the past.

        College graduates are now 60% women and increasing. Psychologists have started writing all kinds of books on whats wrong with males, they seem to be just dropping out, even to the extent they have started ignoring girls, a very un-traditional response.

        I am in contact with a lot of teenagers and its obvious something has changed. Don’t understand it, but its there if
        you look.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        EmTech Preview: Anant Agarwal on Overhauling Education

        How MIT and Harvard hope to reach a billion students with the online learning initiative edX.

        Laura Janes

        Thursday, July 12, 2012

        Anant Agarwal, president of edX, recently stopped by the Technology Review studio in Cambridge, Massachusetts, to discuss the new online learning platform that MIT and Harvard announced in December. The first courses will be launching
        this fall.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Simon, Bob started a pretty insightful topic. This thread needs to be on the front page.

      I think what Bob is digging at is that LENR, if it becomes a commercial reality, is going to make the problem he outlines – worse. Millions of jobs are tied up with the lower caste system of energy production of coal, oil, natgas, all pretty much, low knowledge, high work ratio jobs. Poof! Gone. Yeah, new ones will popup if/when LENR debuts, but enough to take the place of all those fossil fuel jobs?

      Many sci-fi books I’ve read have often waxed serenely about the “age of art” in such a utopia as LENR may engender. But how much art and media can any one society consume? Hollywood, youtube, twitter, fadebook, cnn, nbc, the guardian, ars technica, etc. are already swamps of mediocrity. Who wants more of that?

      (Sorry, feeling verbose this morning)

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – Although it’s interesting and needs discussing, it’s off-topic, so probably will remain here.

        Automation has reduced the number of man-hours needed to produce something. This is good for the person with the automated factory, but when you take it to the limit it means there’s no jobs left – even the robot maintenance can be done by robots, after all. I haven’t got a good solution (or any solution that seems at all viable) for this.

        Historically, this sort of thing has happened before when the Scottish lords kicked their tenants off the land and put sheep on it instead – far less labour needed and the displaced people starved and a lot emigrated. Emigrating from Earth is not yet an option for us. Government-sponsored jobs and high tax-levels seems to be the current attempt at a solution to the problem, but as Bob says this is getting close to some sort of break-point where those who can do the jobs don’t want to bother since they’ll get taxed so heavily, and the others (looking for jobs) may not have the abilities to do the jobs either. About 10 years ago I took the early retirement option and went Gant (just learned that term) since there just weren’t any electronics design jobs within a reasonable commute and I didn’t want to stack supermarket shelves for a living. I understand the reasoning from a personal viewpoint.

        So yes, LENR will create new jobs, but the majority of the work will be done by robots in order to reduce the selling price and thus compete with China. Overall, jobs will continue to diminish in number and yes, we may end up with a lot more freelance artists, freelance scientists/engineers (count me in there) and other jobs that are not essential to daily life. In what way can you add value to your existence and thus demonstrate that you’re worth feeding? Possibly the government will have to provide free food (not a new thing either – as a citizen of Rome you got enough bread to feed the family given to you as a citizen) or something of that order, but it is certain that effectively the factories that do the production will be taxed to the hilt, so they will not actually make a profit. Then again, what is a profit in real terms? Having a lot of money gives you the ability to get what you want without having to budget for the cost.
        It’s going to be a hard transition to the new system where almost no-one has a productive job. It’s made more difficult by the fact that the whole world isn’t at the same threshold, so for a while you can move countries to find somewhere where you can appear to make a profit for a while.

        Yes, these problems need to be thought about now, so that by the time SHTF we at least have some coping strategies.

        On the education issue I’m also in tune with Bob and Iggy, mainly because I’ve had to interview people. The bit of paper does not guarantee that the person can actually do what they say, or can think with any clarity and thus fix a problem. Lack of the piece of paper likewise does not say they aren’t good. While I was a designer I spent around 1/3 of my time learning the new stuff, since within 18 months around 1/2 of what I knew became obsolete. If I wanted to go back in (find someone who had a place for someone knocking 60) I’d have to spend the first 3 months full-time reading (that’s evenings and weekends too) to catch up. Those Ideation challenges you mention need the people who are at that peak in their subject, but the money offered is pretty minimal relative to the value of getting a lot of people putting in good ideas.

        Iggy’s differences between men and women could be seen as sexist, but is actually more pragmatic. If you don’t admit there’s a problem, you can’t solve it (1st rule of FAL). Men and women have evolved differently and see things differently as any married person reading this knows. Women do seem to be generally better at following arbitrary rules and doing it accurately, whereas men are generally better at making the leaps of new knowledge. It helps, though, if you don’t generalise and instead focus on what a particular person can do – for one person a general trend has no validity.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, what is “went gant”? Did you mean “went Gault”?

        re: the differences between men and women. Every now and then, you’ll find a woman that thinks like a man. Have you heard about “finger length ratio”? Typically a man’s ring finger will be longer than his index finger. The extent of this difference, i.e. the ratio, is said to have a large bearing on a person’s personality and athletic ability. One of my facebook friends is an economist, a typically male field. When we discussed finger-length-ratio, she admitted that she had a long ring-finger. I have a niece that is super athletic. She’s very entrepreneurial in that she’s constantly buy and selling things and making a profit. She has a distinctly long ring-finger. One of my female walking partners has a big jaw and walks like a man. She’s a computer geek and she has a male like finger-length-ratio.

        A person’s finger-length-ratio is thought to be determined by the amount of testosterone in the womb during gestation.

        School athletic coaches check the young students’ FLR to determine athletic potential.

        Watch this video and witness the discoverer of FLR almost perfectly guessing the outcome of a footrace by measuring the runners’ FLR.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – Who is John Gant (Ayn Rand)? I think I spelt it right, anyway. It’s where someone opts out of a high-paid job since the return doesn’t seem quite as attractive – not that my job was particularly highly-paid. I’d reached the limit as an engineer, and would have had to have gone into management to get more. I’d have been a lousy manager.

        I’ll measure my fingers and watch the video in the morning, and answer that bit then. Looks interesting, thanks.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, we both spelled it wrong. It’s Galt.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – funny thing – on the right hand my ring-finger is around 5mm longer than the index, but on the left hand they’re around the same length. Is this the Left Hand of Darkness? In any case, I suspect that puts me pretty solidly into the increased spatial awareness camp.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Sorry Simon, but looks like you’re AC/DC.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Sorry Iggy – strictly acoustic guitar here.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Additional ground swell from the fossil fuel industry to ensure it not only maintains its status as primary energy source but grows it as well:

        It’s gonna be hard to compete with such an entrenched industry that can throw a few $mil at the DOE or a dozen universities to get a new report cobbled together that shows how more oil is just sitting there – waiting for the taking.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        an entrenched industry that can throw a few $mil at the DOE or a dozen universities to get a new report cobbled together that shows how more oil is just sitting there – waiting for the taking…

        More oil may be just sitting there but I don’t think it will be able to compete with LENR for heat production. For automotive fuel, yes, for a decade or two, but maybe even less. Breakeven price for Bakken is $44/brl, more for other sources, except in Middle East. If the Cyclone Engine proves to be durable and affordable, then LENR could go automotive, quickly. Cyclone is located near Rossi and I be he’s already visited them. For all we know, Rossi may be using their shop. Rossi may be playing down E-Cat’s auto potential, in order to not ruffle
        BigOil’s feathers.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – there’s more oil around than we could use in a couple of centuries if you factor in a couple of extra factors. The first is that new methods of extracting oil mean that old “sucked dry” fields still have at least a third of their original capacity, if not more, that can still be extracted. The second is that oil has been found in places that the geologists, working on the theory that it is produced from rotting vegetation, didn’t look. Iggy pointed at that one a few months ago. It’s likely that oil is being constantly produced, rather than being a finite resource.

        The main thing is how much energy you have to use to extract it. If we want to extract oil that has a high energy cost, we’ll use LENR energy to get it.

        Still, that oil is still going to be more difficult to get at, and it will cost more to use it to power your car than a pure LENR solution. If you want to buy a new car, which one would you choose? Since there’s probably currently enough Palladium in the catalytic converter to run the whole car if someone works out a good way of getting that reaction going, and Hydrogen is cheap, which costs you more over the life of the car?

      • Anony Mole Says:

        The point I was making, although poorly, was not about oil and its long tail of potential use and continuous discovery, but about the ability of big oil to wave a green dollar wand and supporting facts just jump from the groundwork to say that oil is the energy system of choice.

        It’s this power, with mycelium like tendrils that permeate every fabric our industrial lives, that will not placidly roll over and accept the new energy paradigm. The industry already knew there was untapped oil in all the old ROZ’s (residual oil zones). Why juice the DOE and the consortium that pushed for the study now? This blog as well as other LENR blogs have batted around the oil industry question. In this study I see evidence that that industry continues to intentionally maintain its public dominance. Such dominance is going to be tough to subjugate.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – sorry I missed the point. Of course the oil people will try to protect their livelihoods. Once LENR is out there, though, they can’t hold back the tide so they’ll also be a manufacturer of LENR kit. It’s that or roll over and file for bankruptcy, since if they aren’t made in the USA they’ll be made in China, India and everywhere else. So they’ll do a quick turnaround and bring out product to compete.

      • Bob Says:

        Anony – Some of the recent projects out of the Oil companies is that we could see a 30 to 40 % jump in oil availability in a few short years. If you look at clean coal we have an abundance of energy. I find it very interesting that all of a sudden their is big oil capability, just as LENR is about to hit. If I was a conspiracy guy I would think that all the peak oil talk was just that, a way to keep oil prices up. Maybe they are starting to get scared and getting ready for a price war they can’t win, but it will hold off people mass movement to convert. Why spend the bucks on a new system when I’m getting very cheap prices that are headed down.

        Some of the Oil news letters are starting to talk about LENR quit a bit. I see that Saudi Arabia has started a reward system for those coming forward with new energy ideas. Aren’t they the noble ones! Anyone that would tell them anything would have to be crazy.

      • Bob Says:

        Anony – I don’t worry too much about the oil companies, the free market will determine the winner. Nothing lasts for ever and maybe its oil’s time to step aside, reluctantly.

        What I worry about is the Government. We have the DOE with 100k employes and billions in budget to do what, lesson our dependance on oil, it has increased ever year since they were started, just the last few years has seen a reversal of the dependance on oil, thank you North Dakota and fracking. We could fire all 100k of them and have a better energy policy. They have guys that keep betting on stupid things (solyndra) with our money. The free market will work this all out, we just need government to step aside. Those will be the people that fight us, once they realize the impact on their jobs and the Tax implications.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      MIT Technology Review addresses the automation question:

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy, a good article, but the solution isn’t worth a darn. They say to tell kids to get double majors, one in science. We have kids that hate science and math and getting them to take these coarse is no easy task. Its like saying, be smart and you will get a job, Right!

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        The problem will be solved. Nature is a self-correcting system. Nature doesn’t give a damn about you and me.
        It’s all about survival of the fittest and survival of the prepared.
        Life in urban areas could prove to be risky. I love living in a small rural community but once LENR powered electric generators are available, I may move to a more remote area.

        I know of one spot on a clean river, where every well delivers pure artesian water. With a garden I could be almost totally self-sufficient. LENR could enable a security perimeter, backed up with a few weapons.

        A remote island paradise might be even better.
        The island/nation of Dominica has population of 71,000 people. It’s official language is English and is 80% Christian. Dominica is already in survival mode. Perfect climate, ample fresh water, lots of fresh veggies and fresh seafood. There is little infrastructure. An E-Cat dealer could be king.

  135. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I agree we’re in a difficult transition but I’m optimistic things will work out. I don’t believe socialism is the answer. Look where socialism has taken Europe. Spain has 25% unemployment. Germany, and a few Baltic and Scandinavian nations, have the only healthy economies in Europe because they still have a work ethic.

    As far as the people on the dole becoming the voting majority, that’s about to happen and it will cause big problems. That is a flaw in democracy and needs to be addressed. I believe there will eventually be a violent overthrow of our country at which time there will be an important change to the Constitution. The Constitution will be amended to withhold the right to vote from anyone on the dole. It will be a citizen’s choice….go on the dole, and you lose your right to vote. I also think government employees should not be allowed to vote with the exception of the military, which should retain the right to vote but only during one 5 yr hitch. Career military, past the 1st 5 yr, will also lose their right to vote. Government employee retirees would not be allowed to vote. Social Security recipients should not be allowed to vote after they’ve received back their SS contributions.

    Almost 50 years ago a wealthy newspaperman named John H Perry proposed the “Perry National Dividend Plan”. Perry proposed that
    a hefty corporate income tax be imposed and that all proceeds of the tax be segregated and used only for paying down the Federal national debt. Once the national debt was paid off, then the proceeds from the tax would be returned to the voters in the form of a National Dividend. This would have the effect of turning every voter into a capitalist and a fierce advocate of lean government. When I explained the Perry National Dividend Plan to the Executive Director of the Florida Democrat Party, I stated that Perry’s plan would put efficient government on autopilot. The Democrat replied, “Yeah, too automatic.” This Democrat’s entire extended family has become millionaires swilling at the public trough. He received a $1,000,000 govt grant to renovate his “historic home”.

    Recipients of the “Perry National Dividend” would not lose their right to vote because they would be motivated to vote for efficient lean government.

    As for automation eliminating jobs, that problem could be addressed by reducing the workweek(time & 1/2 after 30 hours) and by having an earlier retirement, but this would have to be thought out carefully because Europe’s generous work rules have about bankrupted them.
    Minimum wage laws are a farce and cause inexperienced and unskilled workers to be replaced by automation. No employer will pay a worker more than that worker produces.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      re: “20th Century was an anomaly.”

      I can remember in the 40s and 50s when the typical housewife was just that….she stayed home and raised the children. If the brainwashing elite decided to prioritize the family again, that could aleviate some of the job shortage. Remember when men worked in banks?

      The hidden costs of bloated government have made it necessary for both spouses to work. Somebody’s gotta support the drones.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Just read a story comparing our govt with that of Singapore. Our govt just gets fatter and fatter, regardless of results. Singapore pays their bureaucrats and politicians a substantial bonus if goals such as employment and GDP growth are met. Singapore’s GDP has grown four times as fast as the US’ over the past 10 years. Singapore has little land and no natural resources. All it has is people and brainpower. Singapore uses way more automation than the US.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – there’s still the problem of needing customers that have money to buy the goods. Once everything is made by robots, you won’t have any buyers since they won’t have jobs and thus will have no money.

        In order to give people jobs, where there is nothing they can make or grow that will be cheaper or better than the automated versions, the government will probably end up giving everyone a government job. In order to do that they’d also need to run all the factories in order to get money to buy the raw materials.

        Given this somewhat dire vision of the future, the obvious tactic would be to buy that land while the money still works, and move there in order to protect it from the people who didn’t think so far ahead. Could be a problem if the land is also nationalised….

        It would be possibly a good idea to make every citizen a shareholder in the nationalised companies. It may provide the illusion of ownership/involvement while the newly-unemployed get a handle on the situation everyone will find themselves in.

        No – I don’t have an answer. One interesting (in a Chinese way) thing is that the banks do seem to be buying up land.

    • Bob Says:

      I don’t believe socialism is the answer either, and In totally agree with your view of education. Like we need another lawyer! You can see the movement back to trade schools and specialized training already occurring. Nothing moves people faster than the need to survive.

      Like you I believe there will be a huge civil war in this country. The rift is huge and growing and there are so many society structural problems that they can no longer be solved by government, they don’t have the will to do what is needed.

      I don’t believe in the dividend plan you mentioned, someone pays and its not fair to those.

      We need a new structure, but I haven’t seen any plan I think would work.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Well, the dividend plan will never pass because it disempowers the politicians. It would convert GimmeCrats into capitalistic voters.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bob – whatever happens there’s going to be a massive amount of unfairness involved. Likely there’ll be new laws about a lot of things, land-ownership being one of them.

        Any fix we suggest to the young ones is going to be temporary, and will only give them a better chance at getting one of the dwindling number of jobs available. Jobs will remain while a human can do it cheaper than a robot, but add the odd strike or two into the equation and the robot side gets more attractive.

        The politicians seem to be either unaware of the growing problem or trying various sticking-plasters to make the problem seem to be better for the duration of their term at the trough.

        LENR won’t change this problem much either for better or for worse. It stops us having to import fuel or energy, but that only fixes the top-level problem while the number of jobs automated will continue to rise. The nation as a whole will be less-indebted, but individuals will be destituted with no job, no property, no food and no place to stay.

        Socialism in its current state won’t work, it’s true, but maybe a development of the ideas could be useful.

      • Bob Says:

        Simon – I think that the first things governments do when there is a big upheaval is to start confiscating land. One of the only things that has true value when things get bad is land. Maybe the land grab in Africa is a hedge against the world collapse. I noticed that George Soros has also been buying land and grain elevators. Its almost like he is expecting a famen!

        The politicians don’t even recognize the problem, let alone have solutions. I do not look to government to solve the problem. People become very resourceful when it comes to survival, the people will figure out the path.

        I think LENR might be surprisingly a tool for new lifestyles and may play a huge role.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bob – one thing that LENR will give us is independence of power generation, thus micro-farms will become very viable (and probably very necessary). I’m not sure of a legal way of getting the land back, but maybe it won’t be done legally but by simply squatting there, in the way the original ownership of land was established.

        Since it’s looking like a lot of Western governments are overburdened with debt and thus money may not keep its value, acquiring land and other resources such as mines is a way of holding the value in real terms. Not that you can eat mines, of course, but given a small bit of land area pretty well anywhere and LENR to give you heat, water and lighting, you can grow food to eat. That’s value in real terms.

        We can see the end-point, but the path there looks somewhat rocky at the moment. I’m hoping that your ideas of revolutions and civil war are unfounded, and that we find a better path through the systemic problems we’re facing. Unfortunately, judging by history, you may well be right.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        LENR will somewhat counteract the hyper-inflation that everyone expects once govts try to monitize their debts (pay off debt with Monopoly money). There’s such a large energy component in the cost of everything that during the LENR transition, there will be deflationary pressure. I’m hoping that LENR and the internet will eventually result in much less government. People will become so self-sufficient that govt will become a frivolous irrelevant formality, like the British Monarchy.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – I hope you’re right about the ameliorating effect of LENR on the costs/money problem, but I can’t see a solution to job losses.

        With all the cheap computer-power, government ought to be much cheaper to administer, but doesn’t seem to have shrunk at all. It’s possibly cheaper to have people working for the government than to pay them to not work at all (this certainly applies in the UK, since the benefits can exceed minimum wage levels). Even if the government itself shrinks, we’d still need the medical people, the police and the other emergency services. Of course some sort of army/airforce is going to be needed to, in case of attacks from other countries, but it’s amazing what robots will be able to do.

        Maybe our individual solutions would be to buy enough shares in robotic factories that the income is enough to support the needs we have.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        America’s coming civil war: Makers vs. takers

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy – there are many articles about the subject. I think either it will be a civil war or things will totally collapse. The collapse may end up worse than the war.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I don’t believe in the dividend plan you mentioned, someone pays and its not fair to those.

        Very little in life is fair. The best we can do is enact laws that that appeal to the selfish nature of the citizenry yet still results in smaller and more efficient govt. The Perry Plan guarantees an eventual balanced budget, because the citizenry doesn’t get their dividend until the FedDebt is abolished. A balanced budget practically guarantees there will be little inflation. Inflation is an invisible tax on savings. Inflation is the most unfair tax of all because it punishes good behavior.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – inflation is also the easiest tax to collect – fair has nothing to do with that. Rather than save money, it’s better to save negotiable (barter) goods. A friend of mine used to have a large collection of gold, but not an excessive amount of money in the bank.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Inflation rewards borrowers and spendthrift politicians and punishes savers…, and the world will soon reap the whirlwind.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – I totally agree with that. It also means that the best personal option is to borrow to the hilt, since you’ll never need to pay back as much real value as you borrowed. That level of dishonesty goes against the grain, somehow.

        Oh well – time for a barbecue!

    • Anonymole Says:

      A theoretical progression to assist understanding of the problem.
      Percentages are representative of number people in each field.
      We’re later equating person count to work done (human equivalents) which is a broken model but it gets us to an established base point.

      100% agrarian
      (100% people all working independently on subsistence farms.)

      *** Shift to manufacturing ***

      90% agrarian : 10% mfg
      (10% building stuff – tools, clothing, housing, luxury, etc.)

      50% agrarian : 50% mfg

      *** Shift to automating mfg and farming ***

      40% agrarian : 40% mfg : 20% automated
      (20% robotic / mechanized)

      25% agrarian : 45% mfg : 30% automated

      *** Shift to leveraging knowledge ***

      10% agrarian : 30% mfg : 40% automated : 20% knowledge
      (20% providing means to increase agrarian and mfg efficiencies which reduces worker counts in each. )

      10% agrarian : 20% mfg : 40% automated : 30% knowledge

      5% agrarian : 15% mfg : 40% automated : 40% knowledge

      *** Shift now to automating knowledge

      5% agrarian : 15% mfg : 50% automated : 30% knowledge

      5% agrarian : 5% mfg : 70% automated : 20% knowledge

      *** Automation maximized

      5% agrarian : 5% mfg : 85% automated : 5% knowledge

      At this point:
      15% of people are employed (impossible to automate),
      85% people are unemployed.
      85% of all work done is done by automated processes.

      Now what?
      Did automation actually make things better?
      Did automation actually provide 85% of the work required? More? Less?
      Can we continue to expand the automation process such that we continue to provide for the populace? 100% of work required? 200%?
      Can automation just continue to advance to the point where no one has to work? “WALL-E” style?

      At this point it’s not an economic question – it’s a philosophical one regarding ethics, mores, work and happiness.
      Can humanity be happy pursuing only idle pastimes?

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – it depends on what you regard as idle pastimes. People may well increase their personal knowledge and be perpetual students if the pressure to earn money in order to live goes away. There will be a lot more people pursuing research in various types of science. Technology is progressing at an exponential rate now – think what could happen if more people could follow crazy ideas and maybe make them work. Those who can’t go the scientific route can do something else (or not). It depends on whether you think artists are working or just wasting their time.

        Manufacturers will go more and more towards automation as it gets cheaper to do it. One job I did for 6 years was to cost-down electronic designs – replace hand-assembly with machine assembly and so our factory had a higher output per person and the boards were more reliable. What manager would not aim to do that? This trend is pretty unstoppable, especially as people now buy even more based on delivered price – we compete with people all over the globe. As it happens the company could build things cheaper in Hungary, so that’s where my job went. No reasonable jobs around for me so I took the early retirement option. I now have an idle pastime playing with LENR. Is that really idle, or is it in fact possibly very useful? Provided that people take the lack of a job as an opportunity, I think that the automation could be a really good time. This needs some political forethought to make it work, so it may not be.

      • Bob Says:

        I don’t think we will stop automation, that will never fly. I think we need to fond ways for growth and better training to keep people employed.
        The government hands out millions every year to subsidize artists, I could never understand why they didn’t do the same for Engineers. It would be great if they made labs available with equipment can be shared so everyone doesn’t have to fight the expensive issue. Government gives grants, but its through the university system. I think there are large numbers of guys like me that think about things that might work, but because of equipment and lab space usually do nothing. I bet there would be more payback to society by funding engineers than what is gained through the arts.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Maybe with SINGULARITY, we can instill a nurturing instinct
        in the self-replicating robots and they’ll treat humans as pets.

        I expect my master to give me a treat when I fetch a can of WD-40.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Iggy, that was classic. And Kurzweil’s head, attached to a robotic spider body will make the perfect auto lubricant robot.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Sure the automation of work done under abhorrent conditions is admirable, but we’re back to wondering what millions of displaced manual workers will now do to earn (or be given) a living. So far we haven’t come up with any reasonable solutions to this issue. Frankly, I don’t know of anyone who has. I’m starting to get bothered by the implications of this.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – I totally agree with that. It’s a big problem that’s been creeping up for a long time. The current solution seems to be “tax the producers and pay the unemployed” but that’s bound to run out of steam when the few gainfully-employed left decide that they’d be better off unemployed – less work but the same (often more) income.

        It needs a fix, but I also can’t see any politicians either acknowledging that there is a problem or doing any planning as to how to make things work when SHTF time comes around.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Here’s one proposed solution and it sounds similar to the “Perry National Dividend Plan” that I wrote about earlier.

        People’s Capitalism
        James S. Albus, a US government engineer and a prolific pioneering inventor of intelligent systems, automation and robotics, was concerned for many years about the potential social impact of advanced intelligent systems.[17][18][19] Dr. Albus was optimistic about the wealth producing capabilities of intelligent machines, but concerned about the elimination of jobs and the downward pressures advanced automation placed on human wages and incomes. In his 1976 book titled “Peoples’ Capitalism: The Economics of the Robot Revolution”,[17] and on his websites [18][20] he lays out a plan to broaden capital ownership to the point where, in his view, every citizen becomes a capitalist with a substantial income from personal ownership of capital assets, leading, in his view, to achieving a future economic system where income from ownership of capital assets supplements, and eventually supplants, wages and salaries as the primary source of income for the average citizen. Albus’s vision concerns a world without poverty, war or pollution, a world of prosperity and opportunity.

        Perry National Dividend Plan
        Corporate income tax would be set at 25% or 30%. The proceeds of the tax could only be used for two purposes.

        #1- Initially all of the corporate income tax would be used to reduce the federal debt.

        #2- Once the federal debt was paid off, all proceeds would then be paid pro-rata to the voters in the form of a National Dividend.

        This would give everyone a piece of corporate America and it
        would motivate every voter to be an advocate of lean efficient government. Every voter would know that any waste or corruption would come out of his pocket.

        A big advantage to this plan would be that it puts efficient government on autopilot because government would have a 350,000,000 man Gestapo watching every move it made. The biggest obstacle to this plan would be that it dis-empowers politicians and special interests. Communists and socialists would hate this plan because it gives power to the people while emasculating the socialist leaders.

        The poor working stiff would actually profit from increased automation.

        The nation of Chile has a social security system which encourages every worker to put his mandatory retirement account in a mutual fund composed of Chilean companies. The workers also have the option of allocating their account to a guaranteed annuity but the retirees that have chosen the corporate funds have accounts worth several times more….approaching a $1,000,000 or more. Not bad for a formerly socialist basket case. Viva Pinochet!

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        People’s Capitalism
        James S. Albus

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – it looks like it would fix the problem for everyone except the politicians who would have to vote it in. I expect it would also make people try harder to pass the citizenship exam, and as a by-product make that harder too.

        Just need to fix the problem of what the ex-workers do with all that time, and no-one telling them what to do with it.

      • AnonyMole Says:

        I figured there was a body of knowledge out there about this topic. Thanks for starting the hunt Iggy.

        I see a “here we are” and a “there we should be” but transitioning between them seems intractable. Albus’s theory seems OK once fully implemented – but how do you get from here to there? Start doling out government purchased shares of IBM, Walmart and Fadebook to all the unemployed?

        I’ll add another wrinkle to the problem, the elderly (sorry about the pun). We’re not retiring as fast as we used to, nor can we (financially), nor do we need to due to disability. The estimates theorize that the U.S. will have 600,000 centenarians by 2050 (72,000 were alive in 2010). Currently 10,000 baby boomers PER DAY are able to retire (turn 65). So not only will we not have jobs for the youth or middle age – but we won’t have jobs for the seniors who work until they’re 90+.

        What do you do with half a billion people between the ages of 65 and 100 who could work but will have a hard time competing with the 20-50 years olds?

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        The Perry Plan wouldn’t involve doling out any stock shares, but would dole out dividends only after the fed-debt was paid. Trouble is, we so deep in debt now that it might take a couple of generations to pay the debt off.

        What you could is repudiate the debt, then start paying out the dividend immediately with the proviso that once we overspend our means, the dividends stop until the debt is paid off.

        Repudiating our debt would ruin our nation’s credit rating but it wouldn’t need any credit if operated on a ‘pay as you go’ basis.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        My new political party will be called the “Capitalist Pig Party”. Our motto will be “Make Corporate Greed Work For You”. The GimmeCrats want to carve up the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs. The Capitalist Pig Party nurtures the Goose and serves up the Golden Eggs. Vote GimmeCrat and you’re putting a fox in charge of the Goose House.

        With the Capitalist Pig Party the FedGovt will consist of Departments of State, Defense, Justice, Treasury, and Commerce (Commerce will consist dept of weights & measures).

        Depts of Interior, Education, EPA, DOE, Transportation, FEMA, and Health & Human Services will be abolished. If a hurricane huffs and puffs and blows your house down, CapPig says, “Build a brick house next time.”

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Eventually we end up with a society where everybody pursues this type of thing? Sheesh – I hope not, as beautiful and amazing as some of those artworks are. One page of Pinterest and I’m done.

  136. Bob Says:

    Iggy – The government has been monetizing the debt for about 3 years. They started out having companies buy the bonds and then a month later they would buy the bonds from the companies. Everyone was turning a nice profit on short term holding of the bonds, now they don’t even hide it, they buy their own bonds with printed money. If everything wasn’t so depressed we would have 20-30% inflation, but its coming.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Yes, but we’re still in deflation. When it really hits the fan, at some point hyper-inflation should hit. It’s not a sure thing because Japan has been sinking further and further in debt for over a decade, yet it’s been in a deflationary spiral. Inflation usually doesn’t take off until consumer confidence goes ballistic. When the Home&Garden channel starts a new house flipping series, then watch out.

  137. Anthony Scalzi Says:

    Add DARPA to the list of replicators(albeit using PMs and not nickel).

    “FY 2011 Accomplishments:
    – Continued quantification of material parameters that control degree of increase in excess heat generation and life expectancy of power cells in collaboration with the Italian Department of Energy. Established ability to extend active heat generation time from minutes to 2.5 days for pressure-activated power cells..”

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Dump the DOE, fund DARPA. The DOE is a totally bloated, ineffectual monster failure. Carter, you have a good heart – but that was a mistake.

  138. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Anony – it does seem strange that governments are saying people have to work longer and retire later, yet the young can’t get jobs. So yes, it’s here we are, there’s where we want to be , but you can’t get there from here.

  139. Bob Says:

    A word from defkalion

    This is not good. Can you spell scam.

    • brucefast Says:

      I don’t quite get you on this, Bob. It would seem to me that being a startup in Greece right now would be really hard. You’ve got to be awfully good to have a growing concern when the country around you is slipping into depression. I could see an honest Defkalion moving to avoid the Greek tragedy.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I agree. It’s probably hard to find international investors for any Greek business except maybe maritime shippers.

      • Bob Says:

        I guess I look at as a company about to go into production at the last minute pulling up and moving. Besides, their business model was to license the technology, that can be done from any country. You can have money deposited anywhere. This gives them one more excuse to delay showing real data or product. If I was an investor and a company was moving out of country I would be very concerned. All the rules would be changing. Depending on how its done you could lose a lot of legal rights. This looks bad to me. Even though I understand the Greek problems, just the most inopportune time to do this.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Off topic, but to illustrate the strange logic of investors, this morning Southwest Airlines reported a 42% jump in 2nd qtr profits, with record revenues. The response on WallStreet?
        A 2 1/2% drop in the stock price.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      I can pose a scenario where you’ve just given birth to the Golden Goose. You show your government that you own it and that if you can get some cooperation/funding/assistance you could spawn a new age centered right in your country. That such a country, given the opportunity, and in such dire straights as Greece is, would leap a the chance.
      Since this appears to not be the case – then one of these assumptions above is broken. Perhaps Bob posits that the existence of the Golden Goose is the most likely broken assumption.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Since Greece likely has the mentality if the US GimmeCrat Party, they might prefer to carve up the Golden Goose and serve with feta and ouzo.

  140. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Bruce – unfortunately, if the original email is kosher, then it gives Defkalion a valid excuse to delay producing something. It’s thus a bit of evidence that maybe they’re not as close to production as they indicate. Nothing to say the email was kosher, though, either. Since the lead company is in Cyprus, then the IP to run the factory is safe from nationalisation even if the Greek government does try to nationalise the company and break international law. All they’d get would be a factory shell, just like any other factory shell. If they waited till production started, nationalisation would seem to be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, too – and they’d still end up with nothing that worked (no IP).

    Overall, Defkalion leaving Greece now seems a crazy idea, since if Greece does leave the euro then it’s going to become a very cheap place to get good workers. If Greece stays in the euro, then the government is going to be very nice to their big exporter. Unless there’s civil war there, it would make sense to stay.

    • brucefast Says:

      On this I agree with you on both points. The e-mail is not confirmed. This could well be a convenient delay tactic. Defkalion promised that independent studies would be published months ago. They have been painfully silent. These facts leave me feeling very frustrated with Defkalion. My vote for first out the door remains to be Rossi.

  141. Consumer Sales Says:

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  142. Bob Says:

    @Iggy – I have posted a questions on Rossi’s site regarding why the certification people require qualified technicians to change the fuel. I wanted to know if it was because of the nano particles, the heat or some other issue. I posted the question twice and it seems to always go away. I would be interested to see if he responds to you posting a similar question.
    I’m quite concerned about this as I live in a rural area and that may be a problem, plus the cost issue.

  143. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    OK Bob, I’ll ask him but he frequently ignores me too.

    I have a feeling he’s just kissing up to the certifiers. The certifiers are likely being overly cautious because this is uncharted science.

  144. Bob Says:

    Thanks Iggy, I think your assessment of the reason makes sense, but its worth a try.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Iggy Dalrymple
      Your comment is awaiting moderation.
      July 25th, 2012 at 7:33 PM

      Dear Dr Rossi,
      Why have you reversed your stance on allowing your customers to replace the fuel cartridge? Is this because of the certifiers’ requirements or is it a new found hazard that you have discovered?

      I ask this because a friend lives on a remote ranch and hiring technicians would be costly. This rancher, by the way, is technically capable. Could he possibly undergo training to service his own E-Cat?

      Iggy Dalrymple

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Andrea Rossi
        July 25th, 2012 at 9:28 PM

        Dear Iggy Dalrymple:
        Very good point: of course a Customer can make the exam with us and become a certified operator, in cases like the one you said. Very good idea, I didn’t think about this case. Thak you.
        Answer: no, it is not a new hazard, it is a reqiorement of the certificator. And it in understandable.
        Warm Regards,

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy – Most interesting answer!! It looks like you planted the seed for a workaround for everyone. Buy a unit, read a pamphlet and take a test – You too can be certified. You solved that problem nicely. I appreciate you doing this, my last 3 posts have been dropped.

  145. Bob Says:

    This is great, a better way of asking it than what I posted. I will watch for the answer. Buy the way, the idea of certification is a way around the rules. When you buy a unit hold a mass class and walk people through the process and then certify them. I like it!

  146. Anonymole Says:

    Alarmist but generally informative:

    And yes, it’s a marketing ploy to get you to subscribe to their doomsday financial package – none-the-less, there’s some useful numbers in there.

  147. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Interesting but I think they’re way too pessimistic about oil production and supply over the few decades. Unless there’s a man-made crisis, like blocking the Strait of Hormuz or a major war in the oil producing countries of the MiddleEast, we won’t likely have a major oil shortage. Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have already built pipelines to bypass the Strait of Hormuz. Our defense experts predict that we could clear Iran’s blockade in a few days. Probably 20% or 30% of oil’s price today is due to Iran’s trumped up fear factor. There probably will be a war and it’ll likely be much shorter than other recent wars.
    Energy Fact of the Day: North Dakota Oil Could Offset All Persian Gulf Imports by 2025

    BISMARCK, N.D. (AP) — “A new study says North Dakota’s oil production could jump more than threefold by 2025 to more than 2 million barrels a day.

    The study released Wednesday by Bentek Energy LLC of Colorado also says natural gas production could more than quintuple by 2025 in the Williston Basin. The basin includes the Dakotas and Montana.”

    MP: If oil production in North Dakota increases to 2 million barrels per day from current daily production of 639,000 barrels, that would be more than enough domestic oil to completely offset current daily U.S. imports of 1.86 million barrels from all of the Persian Gulf countries combined (for 2011, EIA data here)!

    Peak what?
    Oil: The Next Revolution

    Leonardo Maugeri

    • Bob Says:

      Texas has a new find that is close to North Dakota numbers in size. Utah has a big find and Colorado Shale is huge. Throw in untapped oil in Alaska and we could be awash in oil in a few years.

      Still, the government blocks a Canadian Pipeline and the Oil will now be sold to China. The EPA is using every excuse to slow down or kill North Dakota. They took them to court and lost on Fracking. They are trying to restricct drilling because of pheasants. Right now North Dakota is scaled way back because the government is sitting on permits. In Colorado they grabbed land that was rich in oil and turned it into a national park.Texas, Oklahoma and Alaska have a real problem getting new permits. Offshore, almost none as the government defies court orders.

      It sure appears that the goal of government is not energy independence, but more about helping Brazil and the middle east make nice profits. Can you imagine what will go down when an actual LENR system hits the market and people realize its real, panic will exist at many levels.

      Oh yes, the government has appointed themselves new regulators of natural gas, the prices are headed back up as they start restricting the flow.

      We have a crazy, upside down energy policy. The DOE should be done away with.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Obama was handpicked by Saudi Prince Al Waleed Bin Talal (also spelled Waleed bin Talal) (Arabic: الوليد بن طلال بن عبد العزيز آل سعود‎) is a Saudi Arabian business tycoon and investor. He is a member of the Saudi royal family.

        He is founder, CEO and 95%-owner of Kingdom Holding Company. As of March 2012, his personal wealth is estimated to be US$ 18 billion. Arabian Business ranks him as the most influential Arab in the world.

        “Although Obama’s grades were purportedly less than spectacular at Occidental College and Columbia University he managed to gain admission to Harvard Law School, helped by a letter of recommendation by Percy Sutton (1920-2009), who was the attorney for the slain civil rights leader, Malcom “X” (Malcom Little). Sutton told reporters in 2008 that money for Obama’s tuition had been raised by Khalid al-Mansour. (Al-Mansour, a close associate of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan and Malcolm X, was previously known as Donald Warden. Warden was a lawyer and advisor to the Black Panther Party. At a marina in San Francisco where they hid from the FBI, Warden, William Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, and others planned the overthrow of the United States. Warden/al-Mansour eventually became a financial advisor to Saudi Prince al-Waleed bin Talal, who donated $20 million to Harvard to fund an Islamic studies program, and gave $1.35 million to the families of Hamas suicide bombers.)

        Obama’s job at Sidley Austin was likely arranged by Thomas Ayers, father of William Ayers and head of Commonwealth Edison, whose chief counsel was Sidley Austin. Also working at Sidley was William Ayers’ wife, ex-convict Bernardine Dohrn.”
        scroll down to paragraph # 29

        Obama is the only president of the Harvard Law Review to have never authored a review.

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy – great post! I have followed Waleed’s investing for years. He is very conservative, but uses his money to exert pressure when he wants. He used his money to influence Fox News a few years back, essentially made them shut up.He has also teamed up with Soros on Oil deals not favorable to the US. He is not a friend of the US.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        The Mansourian Candidate

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – if that is all true, you’re going to have a difficult time at the election – who do you least not want….

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Romney is made to order for the job. He made his fortune as a “turnaround specialist”. He turned around dozens of failing companies. Our country needs a turnaround.

        The US Winter Olympics was in a shambles, beset with corruption and huge debt. Romney took over and turned it into a great success. The state of Massachusetts was broke when Romney took office and in 4 years he left it with an improved economy and a budget surplus.

        Romney donates over 20% of his income to charity vs about 1% for Obama and about .05% for Biden. Gimmecrats are known for their great compassion and generosity with OPM (Other People’s Money).

        Romney was not my 1st choice but he’s head and shoulders above Obama. It’ll be a close election because over 1/2 of the populace is on the govt dole.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – Over here, that sort of information is not public knowledge, and I haven’t gone digging for it (it’s not my country, and though what the US does affects me, there’s little I can do about it). Thanks.

  148. Bob Says:

    There has been some consternation about the fact that Brillouin’s name dissipated from the ICCf 17 conference in Korea. I just saw this link.

    Being they have hired SRI to build and test their new design, I view this as a good thing as we will most likely get a report on progress.

  149. Bob Says:

    Looks like Rossi may be ready to start revealing things. There Is a Conference in Zurich in September that looks promising.

  150. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Bob, where did you get that list? It doesn’t match the agenda announced for the Zurich Expo.

    • Bob Says:

      Iggy, Somne on the vortex posted it, that’s where I saw it. I hpe your version is the latest and the correct one. Seems like everything associated with Rossi has a twist.

  151. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    McKubre comments on Papp engine (via artefact at ecatworld)

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Food for thought, Iggy. I’d dismissed this as a scam, but maybe I’ll have to move it to the “unproven” stack instead. Thanks.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        The Mystery and Legacy of Joseph Papp’s Noble Gas Engine
        Eugene F. Mallove
        (incl. famed Physicist Richard Feynman’s attempt to discredit the Papp Engine)

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Photos and videos of Papp engine (some with dyno).

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – on the “updates” page there’s an hour-long video of the Rohner presentation. I have to say that he is believable, even if I still have problems believing that the process works. Given that he’s an engineer used to dealing with farm equipment, and the experimentation is Edisonian in nature, he’s done well to get to this point.

        Given the number of scams in this area, it’s not surprising that it’s not accepted, but dynamometer tests and a looped system should convince anyone.

        OK – I’ll accept that it works, but I don’t know how. The guy needs backup from university research, but until it’s believed it won’t happen. Seems also that electronic engineers could be useful, too, to get the control system up to date and better-designed.

        Looks like a lot of things may be coming to fruition around this time, and the Physics books may need to be rewritten.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon said, “Looks like a lot of things may be coming to fruition around this time, and the Physics books may need to be rewritten.”

        Many of these developments have simmering for decades, suppressed by nattering naysayers. Now the internet allows all ideas (good or bad) to be heard. Hyde Park in every easy-chair. Now Craig can heckle from the comfort of his own home.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        “Looks like … may be … may need to be … ” That’ll not convince the nattering naysayers – what will is not a “may be” but a single unambiguous result, a single proven erg of useful energy. The names of Rossi’s alleged customers and their reports on the operation of his ecat. A fulfilled promise from Defkalion. Things like that would have us jumping out of our easy chairs with sheer excitement.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Craig – we were talking about Papp’s engine here, not Rossi. Go spend an hour watching Rohner’s video (it’s on the “updates” section, and come back here and say what you think about him. This isn’t the same thing at all – he takes the device apart on stage, tells how it works (it’s in Papp’s patent, so not secret) and tells of the problems he’s encountered in getting to this point. He isn’t a physicist, doesn’t know exactly why it works, but as an engineer he’s measured the input and output power.

        Yes, it’s quite possible to fake such things, but watch the demo and decide as to whether you think he’s trying to fool people or whether he’s just saying what is. I think he’s just saying what is.

  152. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Fleischmann, RIP. Mankind’s next leap forward from your broad shoulders.

    • Bob Says:

      Its sad that he passes when what he started is so close to be recognized. It would have been great for him to see the first product hit the market. I hope he get a Nobel some day.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Maybe another year and he would have had the recognition he deserved. Carl Pons, however, has been traumatised by the negative attacks, but should at least see the reversal of this.

  153. Mike MacDonald Says:

  154. Anony Mole Says:

    Long but detailed.

    And speaking of the $ involved with fossil fuels, if the $20T that is in the ground, but on future books of the likes of Lukoil and Exxon, then theoretically LENR has at least a $20T opportunity just waiting for it.
    What oil company is going to let LENR happen?
    What oil consuming country can’t possibly not want LENR to happen?
    Big big bucks here aching for the taking.

    • Bob Says:

      Global warming is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on mankind. The climate data has been shown to be manipulated and the instrumentation being done in a faulty manner. The real data shows no warming, in fact the long term trend shows a cooling trend. People should be put in jail for such a lie. Follow the money, its a carbon credit scam.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Bob, I think we’re in a hot period but I doubt man had much to do with it. I think it’s a natural recurring cycle. At any rate, we’re overdue for a drastic cooling, if not an ice age.

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy, I totally agree we are in a hot period. I believe the primary cause is the sun activity being at an all time high. Scientists have noted that all the other planets are also showing a warming trend, not just earth. There is even a correlation of gamma bursts that seem to occur in 11 year cycles. Many causes of weather and I don’t think we understand it. Weather modeling still can only go out about a week. More study is needed before we start changing things..

      • Anony Mole Says:

        I guess even the American Meteorological Society is either a bunch of lying frauds or a band of fools who have been bamboozled by liberal climate hypnotists.

        “There is unequivocal evidence that Earth’s lower atmosphere, ocean, and land surface are warming; sea level is rising; and snow cover, mountain glaciers, and Arctic sea ice are shrinking. The dominant cause of the warming since the 1950s is human activities. This scientific finding is based on a large and persuasive body of research. The observed warming will be irreversible for many years into the future, and even larger temperature increases will occur as greenhouse gases continue to accumulate in the atmosphere. “

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – if they told the truth then they’d lose their grants. Some of them might actually believe it – unless you look at the original data the “corrections” to the dataset (down in the past, up in the present) and the problems from recent measurements being largely at airports you could be fooled by the final pronouncements.

        One interesting thing are the assumptions built in to the climate models, which assume positive feedback. If that were true we’d be on a knife-edge, and would not be here to talk about it. Note that it still gets cold at night – heat gathered during the day is still dissipated at night with hours to spare.

        The AMS say their pronouncement is valid until 2017 unless they decide to change their minds. It’s looking like it’s going to be somewhat cooler by then, since we’re probably past the cyclical maximum this year.

        If you remember that Global Warming really means cold wet summers and more snow in winter, then I expect they’ll manage to keep up the fiction for a few more years till all the Carbon Credits have been sold off and people have made enough profit.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I’m not persuaded that CO2 causes warming. If you’ll study this over 400,000 yr ice core temperature/CO2 chart, you’ll see that through 99% of the period, CO2 lagged temperature change. Right now is the exception, with a near vertical spike in CO2. We’re far higher in CO2 now but we’re only at or slightly below the temperature peaks. If CO2 does indeed cause warming then judging from this chart, it’s preventing an overdue catastrophic cooling (ice age). Ice ages are infinitely worse than hot periods. Further warming will result in large increases in farmable land in the Northern hemisphere (Northern continents are large in the Northern latitudes (Canada, Siberia, Mongolia). In the southern hemisphere the continents become smaller closer to the South Pole.

      Don’t forget, Eric the Red introduced agriculture to Greenland over 1,000 years ago and it’s been too cold for that ever since.

      That’s comparing apples with oranges when the article says the Koch brothers are richer than Bill Gates. The Koch brothers are a family and everyone knows that the richest family is the Waltons. One of the Waltons, by the way, enabled and financed the most profitable solar-voltaic company, First Solar.

      Having said all this, I’m all for LENR. Rather than spread lies why not promote LENR? Only one possible problem….if CO2 promotes warming, how are we going to fight the new ice age? I know, I know.. , with LENR heaters keeping us and our hot houses warm.

      Greenies don’t like LENR because it doesn’t fit their religious dogma. Wind turbines are like the Christian Cross and solar farms equate to the Muslims facing Mecca. LENR doesn’t require sacrifice. It can’t be right if it’s simple and cheap. Sacrifice appeals to the Greenies’ guilt complex.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        The Antarctic Ice Core Chart:

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Based on the Antarctic Ice Core chart, we’re now about 1° above the 0° norm. The last previous hot cycle reache +3°. The last cold cycle reached -9°. If you think +1° is uncomfortable, imagine -9°. We’re now in an abnormally prolonged 10,000 year warm period. Be happy because the norm, over hundreds of thousands of years is Siberian type weather. The long term norm would not support 1/20th of the present world population, without extraordinary technology, like LENR.

  155. Anony Mole Says:

    Well you guys, if you’ve got 20 years still to live, maybe by 2032 you”ll finally have LENR in the marketplace, and you’ll also be able to say definitively that global warming doesn’t exists. Good luck on both.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I’ll be 93 in 20 years. I don’t deny global warming. We’ve got it and the ice core chart shows that global warming and ice ages occur roughly every 100,000 years. We’re at 130,000 year mark now. Maybe CO2 is giving us a reprieve. Personally, I prefer heat to freezing. Maybe Bruce will be operating a Klondike banana plantation.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – I also posted on the last comment but it got swallowed – maybe Bruce will de-spam it, since I pointed you at Chiefio’s blog ( to give you food for thought on the AGW scam. Weather has long cycles of around 60 years and IIRC 230 years and a few others. Climate is the underlying change once you’ve taken the cycles out. Expect the next 10 years to be somewhat cooler, since we’ve just passed the local peak.
      I agree with Bob and Iggy here, and look forward to cheap LENR energy in future not because of low carbon emissions (though less carbon monoxide may well stop some heart problems) but because of the low pollution levels.

    • Bob Says:

      Based on all the data I have seen I think 2032 will look just fine weather wise. Why spend huge dollars and hurt the economy funding things that may happen. Study the weather and watch it closely, but don’t run up the numbers because someone has an agenda. If the real data, nt fudged eventually shows an affect, then by all means start doing something. I think it prudent to keep all pollutants out of the atmosphere with smart long term policies, but do it wisely, not in the destructive manner now being pushed.

  156. Anony Mole Says:

    Note: I’ve read a dozen or more weather/climate books over the last 10 years and I’m also hesitant to be all-in on the CO2 debate. But I’m not so rightwing stubborn to declare the whole thing a hoax. What the article does is point out the utter separation of the fossil fuel cartel’s direction from that of the balance of the world’s. That regardless of the eventuality of weather change, we as a society have setup a system that rewards blatant disregard of society’s wishes. CorpGov is what we’ve created and the oil industry is the perfect example of it.

    Frankly, the planet can fry for all I care. And most likely will. If you live in Florida, Bangladesh or Texas all I can say is you picked a bad place to hang your hat.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Anony, I doubt we’re about to fry. One quick look at the Ice Core chart shows that we’re in a rare warm honeymoon period. The norm is frigid misery.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – I seem to be quoting Chiefio a lot, but here’s a post he did tonight that is pretty relevant to your rant:
      Anarchy just doesn’t work in a real world, but we should have the smallest government that is possible. The book looks like it exposes some nasty (and obvious if you take the pink glasses off) truths. It’s not just the oil companies who want your money.

      On weather and Climate Change, it’s not likely that human endeavours in burning fossil fuels have really changed the actual temperatures by more than 0.1°C in real terms – it’s below the threshold of experimental error. Where we might be making some difference is in monocultures in crop growing, thus reducing the natural world-wide negative feedback system that regulates the climate to the conditions the plants and animals most prefer.

    • Bob Says:

      @Anony – If you have read a dozen books on climate change, that may be part of the problem. You have to realize that most who write these books have an agenda to push to further their careers. They become a voice for the people that want to push Global warming, so they get speaking engagements and research funding.

      I have started reading several books and never got beyond the 3rd chapter as much of the data they present is flat out false.

      The best thing to do is read the data and judge for yourself, but even that is difficult as shown by the climate gate revelations.

      If you go by whats reported, you would believe in global warming. It is slowly changing and some day it will be recognized for what it is.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I live in N Florida about 60 miles from the Gulf coast. It’s 62′ elevation in town and our airport, about 5 miles North is 118′. In one of the local rivers you can find petrified shark teeth. Now that had to be during a very hot period perhaps at the last super-hot cycle, about 130,000 years ago…..not too any SUVs then.

      One hundred and fifty years ago Florida’s citrus belt was in N Florida. Forty years ago when I was crop-dusting, the citrus belt was centered just S of Orlando. Now Florida’s citrus belt has had to move another 100 miles further South because of killing freezes. The citrus belt has had to move over 200 miles South because of cooling. Now the pendulum has swung back and orange & lemon trees are again thriving in N Florida, so long as they are planted on the S side of a building.

      When I was a child and it rained, my whole universe was wet. Now I’m a man and realize that the world doesn’t revolve around me. Simple aborigines in New Guinea can be duped into thinking a medicine man can cause a solar or lunar eclipse. Al Gore and his clique have the same power over their flock. Al Gore, when he left office as VP, was worth about $1/2 million. Ten years later he was worth $100,000,000.

      The hated Exxon Corporation has paid over $1 trillion in taxes since 1999. For every $1 it’s earned in profits, it’s paid $3 in taxes.

  157. Anony Mole Says:

    Thanks for the book ref Simon. Added to my list. It’s coincidental that it coincides with a recent activism I’ve taken up – that of the 29th Amendment – Nonsequential terms for Congress. (28th = Corporations are not people). They’re all pipe-dreams but it gives me something to do while waiting for Iggy’s next ice age.

    Agreed Bob. You are what you read (assimilate and rationalize). I guess it’s just those 99% of climate scientists, hard to ignore them. Oh, and when this number hits 400, some time in the next few years – maybe we can get together and drink some hot beer:

    • Bob Says:

      Anony – No argument that CO2 is increasing, the argument as to its affect is the real issue. The temperature graph looks imposing, but if you put it on a different scale and look at it we are nothing more than at the top of a cyclic range.

      It is estimated that the sun impact is 6000 : 1 as far as its impact verses mans. I’m more concerned with solar flares and sun spots.
      This is a subject open to wide interpretation that only time will probably resolve. These things are best discussed over warm beer as preferred by my German Heritage.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      The latest big scientist convert to LENR is Dr Myron Evans:

      Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR)

      Looks very interesting if it is truly free of radioactive waste. It makes wind turbines obsolete overnight, another example of terrible theoretical failure, this time the fantasy of global warming. I am advised that wind turbines are easily dismantled, so they too will have wasted billions and severely damaged several major economies. It will take millions more to dismantle them, because many turbine companies will shortly go bankrupt as subsidies are cut off by a governments either coming to their senses or running out of money. The landscape will be littered with turbine wrecks as in the west of the U. S. The untamed fury of the oceans will soon take care of those put out to sea, and they will be a danger to shipping. Sic transit gloria mundis.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Nobel prize winner for physics in 1973 Dr. Ivar Giaever resigned as a Fellow from the American Physical Society (APS) on September 13, 2011 in disgust over the group’s promotion of man-made global warming fears. Climate Depot has obtained the exclusive email Giaever sent to APS Executive Officer Kate Kirby to announce his formal resignation.

      Dr. Giaever wrote to Kirby of APS: “Thank you for your letter inquiring about my membership. I did not renew it because I cannot live with the (APS) statement below (on global warming): APS: ‘The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.’

      Giaever announced his resignation from APS was due to the group’s belief in man-made global warming fears.

      Giaever explained in his email to APS: “In the APS it is ok to discuss whether the mass of the proton changes over time and how a multi-universe behaves, but the evidence of global warming is incontrovertible? The claim (how can you measure the average temperature of the whole earth for a whole year?) is that the temperature has changed from ~288.0 to ~288.8 degree Kelvin in about 150 years, which (if true) means to me is that the temperature has been amazingly stable, and both human health and happiness have definitely improved in this ‘warming’ period.”

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy – I just read a few days ago that NASA adjusted their 1963 and earlier data down some, make it look like our temperature is going up fast. Why after all this time do they adjust that data, makes no sense. About a year ago 50 Scientists from NASA signed a letter stating they don’t believe in global warming, the next day one of the Directors made a bold statement about global warming and how bad it was.
        Those in power see it as a money issue, play along and you will get some. The regular scientists know the truth and are waking up. I’m convinced this issue will o away in another year or two, but then if they keep adjusting the data bases wo knows.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Bob, seems like the entire establishment is on the take. WiKi, the press, education, Hollywood, etc. You’ll come closest to finding the truth on the internet but you have to be very discerning. The professional opinion-makers have thoroughly infested the web. You can usually spot them by their high energy level. That’s because they are not individual people, but usernames for professional staffs.

  158. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    “I have never understood why it is “greed” to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else’s money.” – Thomas Sowell

    I am astounded at the number of communists and socialists posting on vortex and ecatworld. Some are charging Rossi with world class criminality for hoarding his intellectual property and not giving it to mankind. One vortex poster charges Rossi with the responsibility of the death hundreds of millions of people.

    Communists, in fact, have killed hundreds of millions of people, mostly their own citizens.

    I’m not wealthy and haven’t paid a dime of income tax for the past 2 years, yet I don’t envy the wealthy nor do I lust for their power and money. Class envy destroys society. To envy others’ wealth and success is to destroy one’s own happiness. Our wise founders sought not to guarantee happiness but the freedom to pursue happiness.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – it is pretty silly to try blaming Rossi for not inventing a perfect machine, or to blame him for all the troubles of the world that might have been fixed if he’d got it right a while back. I think a lot of those people would want Rossi to have told them how it’s done for free, and then they would go make a fortune making their own versions and selling them. Sour grapes…. Meantime, I’d object to the overall tarring of those posters as “communists and socialists” since if they were _real_ communists or socialists they’d not be doing that – it’s only the power-hungry or jealous people that complain about someone else benefitting from their own hard work.

      I’m pretty sure that all the people working in LENR want to make a profit at the end of the day, and it would be nice if they could, since the majority of normal citizens would also profit from it. It’s not yet happened, but Celani does seem to have made a big stride in making things repeatable.

      Could be that the sudden increase in caterwauling on the blogs is because we are getting Real Close Now to actually getting a commercialised system. This could be a major problem for the profit-levels of some established businesses, so maybe they’re trying harder to sway public (and scientific) opinions away from the realities. Conspiracy theories or something similar? I don’t know. Whatever it is, looks like it’s doomed to failure once the first LENR-based commercial system rolls off the production line.

      On the problem of left/right or conservative/liberal, or any other political schism, I’ve become a lot less sure what those epithets actually mean as I’ve gotten older, and they are much more of a pointer to what the person using them then the person being talked about. Politics doesn’t come in two colours, but multiple shades and dimensions.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Humans are the dominate social species on the planet because of two competing genes, the greed gene and the share gene. Read “The Social Conquest of Earth.” Groups prosper when we share. Individuals prosper when they’re greedy.

        Capitalism is the model of the greed gene.
        Communism is the model of the share gene.

        But of course neither are purely one or the other. Capitalism wouldn’t work if it didn’t include some aspect of sharing. Communism fails because the greed gene cannot be fully suppressed. Unfortunately, over the last 100 years, the greed gene in capitalism has not been contained well enough nor the share gene expanded far enough so that now we have the current vast disparity of wealth. The 99% vs the 1%.

        But the fact exists that humanity has so successfully dominated the planet must be attributed to the share gene. The rest of the animal kingdom has only the greed gene and has not conquered the planet like man has. To eliminate the group benefiting traits, those of communistic and socialist tendencies in humans, would be to return us to vicious individuals avariciously appropriating every thing of value in little private piles covering the planet. A civilization and societal fail.

        To want the species, as a whole, to share in the benefits of technological breakthroughs can hardly be called a bad thing. But at the same time we must all contrast and balance this ideal with that of the personal attainment of wealth representing our now and future economic stability.

        If Rossi were withholding a breakthrough that would lift the whole of humanity up out of the death grip of fossil fuels I would be the first to call him a greedy bastard. Yet at the same time understanding why his first priority is to establish his own fiefdom of wealth to sustain his lifestyle.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Anony, problem with what you call sharing is the ultimate greed, the ‘forceful taking of wealth’, aka ‘stealing’. True generosity is voluntary. Conservatives give a much larger percentage of their wealth. Romney gave 20% to charity while Obama gave 1% and Biden gave .01%. Liberals make themselves feel good by donating other people’s money. Liberals are huge phonies. Liberals have besmirched the word “Liberal”, derived from “Liberty”. A true liberal in the classical sense of the word is a libertarian. The hated Koch brothers are libertarians and have donated hundreds of millions of dollars.

  159. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I’ve been ‘unfriended’ by 2 people because I was too conservative, by 1 person because I was too boring, and by another person because I was too liberal. My ‘liberal’ position was that I favor stopping the war on drugs. Favor most of Milton Friedman’s positions on economics, politics, and philosophy.

    Also admire most of America’s founding fathers.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – I guess that proves my point that where people pigeonhole you says more about them than about you.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Yes, I apologize to all the kind hearted liberals. Nothing personal, but I simply feel that socialism and communism do not work.

        What most people do not remember, because it has been omitted from most American history textbooks, is that Marxism had been experimented with by Christians in America 250 years earlier and had been proven not to work! In 1620, the Pilgrims had tried communism and abandoned it after only one year as totally unworkable.

        In 1609 the Pilgrims fled the restrictive environment of the Church of England and moved to Holland in order to freely practice their religious convictions. On August 1, 1620 , 40 of them set sail on the Mayflower with 62 others souls. They were under the leadership of William Bradford. Before setting up the community of Plymouth , Massachusetts , they composed one of the great documents in human history, the Mayflower Compact. It guaranteed just and equal laws to govern all residents of the community, regardless of their religious convictions. The concepts contained in the Compact were all based on Biblical reasoning.

        The funding for the Pilgrims to go to the New World was provided under a contract with London merchants who wanted an economic profit from the venture. Under that contract whatever they produced was to be put into a common warehouse, with each one getting one equal share. All the land, buildings and end product were communally owned.

        Half of the Pilgrims died during the first winter, including Bradford’s wife. As governor, Bradford realized that collectivism had been a costly and destructive mistake. Bradford and others realized that socialism gave no incentive to the most creative and industrious among them to work any harder than anyone else. Collectivism had prevented the exercise of personal motivation.

        Bradford wrote about the experience:

        The experience that was had in this common course and condition, tired sundry years . . . that by taking away property, and bringing community into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing — as if they were wiser than God . . . “ “For this community [so far it was] was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for others men’s wives and children without recompense . . . that was thought injustice.”

        The Pilgrims tried collectivism, socialism and communism and found that it produced slough, laziness and destroyed incentive. What did they do about it?

        They trashed part of their contract with the London merchants; learned from the local Indians how to produce better crops and harvest more fish; assigned private property rights of land to all members; and, gave them the right to profit from their industry. What happened next?

        Bradford wrote about this institution of Christian capitalism: “This had very good success for it made all hands industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been.”

    • Anony Mole Says:

      You realize that you owe your existence to the success of thousands of collective groups over many millenia. Groups whose members valued the survival of the group over the individual. In addition you owe your existence to thousands of individuals over the same timespan who fought for their individual survival.

      You have both share and greed genes within you. As do we all. As we have both conflicting aspects of survival so too must societies. Capitalism AND socialism blended together make a civilization. The pure models of each, communism for the socialism model and pure individual avarice for the capitalism model, would and do fail. But to strike down all of socialism out of hand is to deny the fact that humankind is a social animal.

      It is probable that humans have different percentages of these genes. Those that despise socialism disregarding its place in the foundation of societies. And those who despise capitalism similarly disregarding that a capitalistic free market is the source of society’s innovation and technological advance. The balanced person admits that both are required to further the interests of Man. You may deny the above but the existence of 7 billion social humans is proof enough for me.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – The “collective” gene, as you term it, works best in small numbers. It’s family-based. I don’t know where to find the link now, but for most groups they start to fall apart when you exceed 15, and the clan (so – fairly close family group) starts to fall apart at 150 people. The “avarice’ gene, on the other hand, can apply to just one person (Evil Bastard), your nuclear family (one step away), the clan (several steps away) or some strange construct such as a town,state or nation.

        Overall it is for each individual to decide just how far the bounds go between “them” and “us”. For “us” you’ll work harder, looking for a return on the investment of effort (unless you’re an Evil Bastard looking only for your own profit). You’ll find a lot of motivations if you ask a lot of people, even if they do try to tell you the best truths they know (not the normal state of affairs).

        Overall, people will work if they see that there is a perceived benefit. Iggy’s Pilgrim Fathers example is one where the people couldn’t see a benefit from their work, so they didn’t do it. The problem with over-socialist setups is that too many people see a lack of incentive – the work benefits someone who is not “one of us” but “one of them”, so they don’t work and live on the State benefits.

        Capitalism can work if the people doing it maintain a sense of honour, but without this ethic it’s going to fail in revolution.

        You’re right that either system is going to fail, therefore, without a sense of community and thus a degree of communism and capitalism at the same time. Most systems seem to tend towards too many takers after a while – big government and corruption.

  160. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    The Peasants’ Secret Agreement That Transformed China.

    In 1978, the farmers in a small Chinese village called Xiaogang gathered in a mud hut to sign a secret contract. They thought it might get them executed. Instead, it wound up transforming China’s economy in ways that are still reverberating today.

    The contract was so risky — and such a big deal — because it was created at the height of communism in China. Everyone worked on the village’s collective farm; there was no personal property.

    “Work hard, don’t work hard — everyone gets the same,” he says. “So people don’t want to work.”

    In Xiaogang there was never enough food, and the farmers often had to go to other villages to beg. Their children were going hungry. They were desperate.

    So, in the winter of 1978, after another terrible harvest, they came up with an idea: Rather than farm as a collective, each family would get to farm its own plot of land. If a family grew a lot of food, that family could keep some of the harvest.

    This is an old idea, of course. But in communist China of 1978, it was so dangerous that the farmers had to gather in secret to discuss it.

    One evening, they snuck in one by one to a farmer’s home. Like all of the houses in the village, it had dirt floors, mud walls and a straw roof. No plumbing, no electricity.

    “Most people said ‘Yes, we want do it,’ ” says Yen Hongchang, another farmer who was there. “But there were others who said ‘I dont think this will work — this is like high voltage wire.’ Back then, farmers had never seen electricity, but they’d heard about it. They knew if you touched it, you would die.”

    Despite the risks, they decided they had to try this experiment — and to write it down as a formal contract, so everyone would be bound to it. By the light of an oil lamp, Yen Hongchang wrote out the contract.

    The farmers agreed to divide up the land among the families. Each family agreed to turn over some of what they grew to the government, and to the collective. And, crucially, the farmers agreed that families that grew enough food would get to keep some for themselves.

    The contract also recognized the risks the farmers were taking. If any of the farmers were sent to prison or executed, it said, the others in the group would care for their children until age 18.

    The farmers tried to keep the contract secret — Yen Hongchang hid it inside a piece of bamboo in the roof of his house — but when they returned to the fields, everything was different.

    Before the contract, the farmers would drag themselves out into the field only when the village whistle blew, marking the start of the work day. After the contract, the families went out before dawn.

    “We all secretly competed,” says Yen Jingchang. “Everyone wanted to produce more than the next person.”

    It was the same land, the same tools and the same people. Yet just by changing the economic rules — by saying, you get to keep some of what you grow — everything changed.

    At the end of the season, they had an enormous harvest: more, Yen Hongchang says, than in the previous five years combined.

    That huge harvest gave them away. Local officials figured out that the farmers had divided up the land, and word of what had happened in Xiaogang made its way up the Communist Party chain of command.

    At one point, Yen Hongchang was hauled in to the local Communist Party office. The officials swore at him, treated him like he was on death row.

    But fortunately for Mr. Yen and the other farmers, at this moment in history, there were powerful people in the Communist Party who wanted to change China’s economy. Deng Xiaoping, the Chinese leader who would go on to create China’s modern economy, was just coming to power.

    So instead of executing the Xiaogang farmers, the Chinese leaders ultimately decided to hold them up as a model.

    Within a few years, farms all over China adopted the principles in that secret document. People could own what they grew. The government launched other economic reforms, and China’s economy started to grow like crazy. Since 1978, something like 500 million people have risen out of poverty in China.

    Today, the Chinese government is clearly proud of what happened in Xiaogang. That contract is now in a museum. And the village has become this origin story that kids in China learn about in school.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Cool story. Thanks Iggy.

      The “me” gene and the “we” gene; gotta find a balance. I bet societies oscillate between too much socialistic distribution and too much capitalistic free rein. And probably never find the magic mix.

      As per Rossi, if he’s not all bluff and pomp, I hope the we overrides the me here some time soon.

      • brucefast Says:

        Anony, in my opinion you got it right on both counts.

        1, Cool story. In case you doubt the legitimacy of the story, here it is published on a Chinese website: (Note the .cn extension).

        2, The “me” gene and the “we” gene; gotta find a balance. While infinite we’ism doesn’t work, infinite me’ism is every bit as bad. As one who lived in the U.S. for over a decade the most startling thing I noticed about the difference between Canadian and American culture was the “me”, “we” difference. When I returned to Canada, I thoroughly enjoyed recognizing that “we” matters here.

        BTW, by most methods of measurement Canada’s fiscal situation is far better than the US’s. By most methods of measurement our “universal healthcare” is much more effective than the American “me” driven system.

      • Bob Says:

        @Bruce – I think your making judgement about the difference between the US and Canada based on a limited Sample. Living in California isn’t normal for the US. If you live outside of California or the Big cities back east, the country is very We. I grew up in the mid west and was shocked at California when I moved there.

        The Canadian health sucks from everything I know. I lived in Blaine Washington a border town and we had many Canadian friends that hated the Canadian System. Most of them came down to the US whenever they had major problems. Bellingham built a new heart surgery wing just to support the Canadian business coming in. I know 3 Canadians that had to wait 2-3 years for knee and hip surgery before they were allowed the operation.

        The Canadians have a great scam going, they buy travelers insurance, come to the US and end up in the emergency room. They get US medical help picked up by their travelers insurance

        My view, based on a few dozen friends from Canada sure tells a different story. The US system isn’t the best, but it beats most places in the world, but we are about to fall off the cliff with Obamacare, its the biggest disaster about to hit us. When Obamacare goes into affect, then Canada will be better.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      The smug “We Gang” just succeeded in hounding Jojo Jaro into unsubscribing from vortex. To a man, with the exception of one, they are pinko socialists and GW Alarmists. They rid themselves of an aspiring replicator. They are typical “tolerant” liberals.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – Jojo was flaming a lot, and it looked to me he was insulting a lot of people for not accepting his religious views but arguing against them. Personally I can’t see the point of hassling over things we haven’t got any proof of yet. Whether it’s Intelligent Design or Evolution or something else, without some solid evidence it’s a moot point and people should make up their own minds which fits best with their experience.

        Jojo is a bright guy, and when he was talking about technical matters he made sense, so a loss to the Vortex. He also seems to have some blinkers on with respect to Obama’s birth certificate and Muslims, where he’s going to stick to his beliefs whatever evidence is brought up, and that is not good scientific thinking.

        I’m hoping Jojo will continue with the replication experiments. With LENR, though, it’s really necessary to see what is rather than see what you believe to be there, so I suppose I’ll need to reconsider the estimate of his chances of succeeding if he carries this attitude into research.

        It’s sad that such intolerance was shown on both sides – there’s room for a lot of belief systems/religions in this world, and some might even approach being right.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        The thread that raised Jojo’s ire was started by Jed. It was Jed that continued to stoke the flames. To me, Jojo felt he had to inject and defend his views.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – I probably missed the start of the flamewar. I didn’t bother reading the bits about how Darwin got it wrong after I’d got the flavour of the first few.

        Various friends of mine have believed things I can’t accept – not a cause for violent disagreement. They have a right to be communist, jewish, muslim, jehovah’s witness, catholic… what’s bad is if you think you’re the only one with the answers and fight to get people to accept your way. My friends would discuss things, not fight over it. Until there’s absolute proof, not just writings, it’s not possible to say who is right or wrong, so go with what feels most right to you.

        Humans are good at connecting an effect with a possible cause. This has to be a good survival characteristic (hint that I basically accept Darwin as having a good idea) since it would make life less dangerous. Another survival characteristic must be to have a religion, since as far as we know all civilisations did – those that didn’t, didn’t survive to enter the history books. That possibly applies to your communist example above, though I’d note that both Russia and China have suppressed religions – it’s not absent by any means.

        IIRC, Jojo called his opponents “pinko liberals” at one point (or at least one that I saw). I don’t want to waste time reading people insulting each other. I think Vortex is not the place to discuss religion or politics (Glasgow pubs are the place for that!) since there are lots of other blogs to go to. LENR is contentious enough without bringing in other subjects.

        I’d hope Jojo continues in his endeavours to crack the problem – Vortex still has the discussions to read.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I would welcome Jojo to this board although Simon & Peter would probably the only members that could communicate on his technical level…..myself being the most ignorant.

        On the subject of evolution….I believe in evolution. There’s no denying it, but I don’t believe that evolution is the cause of the ascendency of man. I believe man is the result of alien intervention, God. The ancient Sumarians wrote of gods descending from the sky and mating with Earthians. This supposedly happened at the site of this planet’s 1st city, Eridu, near the present city of Basrah, Iraq.

        I believe God created the universe. Nature is too clever and perfect to have evolved by happenstance.

        Dr Francis Collins, the present Director of the National Institute of Health, headed the team that discovered several disease causing genes. In 1993 he succeeded James D. Watson as Director of the National Center for Human Genome Research. Dr Collins, then an atheist, was impressed with the faith expressed by his dying patients. He researched religion and studied the evidence for and against God by reading “Mere Christianity” by C. S. Lewis, another former atheist. Collins’ conversion inspired him to write “The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief”.

        Francis Collins revealed that combative atheist Richard Dawkins admitted to him during a conversation that the most troubling argument for nonbelievers to counter is the fine-tuning of the universe.

        While Paul Dirac, the founder of quantum theory, certainly wasn’t a Christian, he said, “God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world.”

        One of Dirac’s scientist peers quipped, “Well, our friend Dirac, too, has a religion, and its guiding principle is “God does not exist and Dirac is His prophet.”
        From the age of about 15 to the age of 34, I was an agnostic. Then one day I had an epiphany, “What sets man apart from the animals?” The answer, in my mind was what Anony calls the ‘We Gene’ or the ‘Share Gene’. I call it the ‘Love Gene’. Not sexual love but Platonic love or what Christians call ‘Agape Love’. Agape is selfless, sacrificial, unconditional love, the highest of the all types of love.

        Only Man and God is blessed by this super love. The Bible says that man was created in likeness of God. I believe that the ‘Love Gene’ is the ‘God Gene’.
        “A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.” – William James

        “A fanatic is someone who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.” – Winston Churchill

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – I’d also be happy to welcome him here.

        As regards technical level, you do yourself a disservice. It was your idea of using a fluidised bed reactor, and I suspect Rossi read that (may have been passed in another blog) and added it to Celani’s experiments with Constantan wire. The new 1200°C Rossi reactor is thus probably a fluidised bed, with natural gas+air filtering through a bed of Constantan particles, providing both heat and Hydrogen to get the reaction. He may of course still be using Nickel….

        Where inventions come is taking experience from previously-unrelated subjects and relating them together to get a new method of making something that works. You seem to have done a lot of things and have a lot of experience to draw on. I take notice of your ideas, even if I can’t see a way to make them real.

        On religion, I’ve been through stages of knowing and re-thinking. My current thinking is that the various religions hold some of the truth, with a lot of baggage built on top that gives opportunities to control the populace. I have a feeling that the reality is too complex for any normal genius to understand. In a way it’s don’t know, can’t know, though a couple of times I’ve had revelatory thoughts (in the bath!) where I felt I knew how the universe worked, but of course couldn’t remember it afterwards and use it. Not explainable in words, anyway. Satori can’t be explained, just experienced – I can’t of course tell whether it was true knowledge or not, since I couldn’t retain it. It could have been self-delusion.

        On the subject of fine-tuning of the universe, it’s also true that if it wasn’t then we wouldn’t be discussing it. There are a lot of wacky ideas put forward by otherwise sober physicists to explain this, and Heinlein also explored this in “the number of the beast”.

        I don’t believe that we are that much different from animals (sorry to disagree). I see the cats planning things, I see love and affection, cooperation and planning between other animals, too. In the case of Dolphins and Whales, they have language and social systems that we are starting to understand. Consciousness is a really difficult subject, and seems to be in shades rather than absolute.

        Looking at the idea of alien intervention, although it’s another wacky idea that doesn’t mean it can’t also be true. There’s evidence that can be interpreted that way. It’s hard to tell until I meet an alien myself, and can be convinced it’s not either my imagination or an escapee from a Hollywood movie set. “Dave” was fun (OK, English humour). A long time back Asimov did some estimations as to how many civilisations there ought to be in our galaxy and how many would be at our stage of development (or near) right now and within seeing-distance. The answer was that it was unlikely that anyone else would be within a reasonable distance. Just estimates of chances based on what was known at the time, but pretty solidly based since he was a working scientist in the days that you could trust a scientist to tell the truth. Chances of alien intervention are slim, but there. People also win the lottery…several times a year.

        I hope I’m not rearranging prejudices when I think about things, but there are probably things that go deep and are not easily changed. I suspect absolute truth is currently unobtainable, but we’ll keep looking.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Jojo is back.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon said, “Iggy – I’d also be happy to welcome him here.

        Anyone who cares to invite Jojo Jaro to this group. I just did at His email is listed at the bottom of his vortex posts.

  161. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Google translation of Cures Blog:

  162. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Have you guys watched these 2 videos where the gas mixture is mysteriously “consumed” and instead of piston travel, the coil is heated?
    Video #1

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Video #2

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – looks a bit like they’re producing ball lightning in there, and it’s oscillating at high frequency and inducing currents in the coil. Coils have self-resonant frequencies (if you buy them, it’s on the datasheet). It’s a bit slow to watch (download is not fast enough so keeps stopping) so downloading to watch offline. Ball lightning can be dark as well as luminous. Not much research on the subject, either. It’s the sort of problem where you’d need a high-speed ‘scope and probes, so you can see what’s happening – they don’t seem to have done that. If the fuel is being visibly consumed, that’s a lot of mass (relatively) being converted, so here there’s something else happening other than LENR – if it were LENR he’d be producing megawatts and melt everything.
      So – with this coil he’s hit a resonance – that’s reasonably likely. Fuel disappearance – maybe through that balloon if he’s producing higher molecular speeds than he normally does, but no real ideas at the moment.
      Update since I reached the end (finally) – he’s tried to measure the frequency and failed. There’s hope someone will measure it correctly, then.

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  164. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Falls Church News-Press Strikes Again (Although this is a small newspaper, it’s probably influential because it’s a bedroom community for Washington, DC.) The newspaper has previously published two articles on LENR, both positive.

    The Peak Oil Crisis: Another Disruptive Technology?
    By Tom Whipple
    August 15 2012

    The August doldrums are a good time to note that there is yet another “disruptive technology” under development, and possibly close to market, which has the potential to make radical changes in the way we obtain and use energy. This time it is not anomalous heat observed when hydrogen is loaded into nickel, but is an updated incarnation of a technology that has been around for 45 years — the noble gas engine.

    This device, which used to be known as the Papp engine after its original inventor, or the noble gas engine after its source of fuel, has had a turbulent, and controversial history ever since it was first demonstrated in public back in November 1968. As with low energy nuclear reactions (LENR) the device’s major problem is that, in the eyes of many, it seems to be too good to be true, therefore it probably isn’t. In the last 40 years, the technology has had several abortive revivals, but no one ever succeeded in building a commercially viable product and the technology has been essentially dormant since the 1980’s. Now that seems to be changing.

    The general concept of this device is as follows. Start with a device similar to the combustion chamber, pistons, and crankshaft of an automobile, only without intake or exhaust valves. Fill this chamber with a mixture of noble gases such as helium, argon, and neon. Then zap the gas with a 200,000 volt electric charge much in the manner a spark plug detonates the air/gasoline mixture in your car. This pulse of electricity turns the noble gas mixture into a ball of plasma that expands to five times its original volume pushing on the piston with enormous force. Removing the electric pulse immediately changes the plasma back into gas which instantly shrinks to its original volume and its original state and is ready to be zapped again.

    The best analogy in nature is a lighting bolt that arises from a massive difference in electric potential between clouds or between clouds and the ground. As the electrical discharge of the lightning bolt takes place, the air along the bolt is ionized and expands rapidly. As there is nothing to contain the ionized air we hear it as a clap of thunder which dissipates its energy over hundreds of square miles. A Papp engine holds its “thunder” in chamber and uses its energy to push against a piston in the manner the combustion of air and gasoline does in your car.

    Unlike in an internal combustion engine however, the gas mixture in a Papp engine can be re-zapped into a plasma and returned to a gas continuously dozens of times per second — for months, or perhaps years, producing incredible amounts of useful mechanical energy by current standards. There are many interesting features to this device. It produces no exhaust, no radioactivity, and builds up no heat. The cost of an occasional “refueling” with small amounts of a noble gas mixture should be trivial. Such engines should be inexpensive to build in comparison with internal combustion engines as they have no valves, no fuel system, no cooling system, no exhaust system and the only significant forces involved are the push of the expanding plasma against the pistons. By today’s standards the electronics required to control the engine should be relatively inexpensive to produce. In short we have an engine that takes close to no fuel, is cheap to produce, produces no emissions of any kind, and is scalable to whatever size is required.

    About five years ago an American engineer named John Rohner, who was peripherally involved in designing the control system for the early prototypes of the Papp engine that were built in 1980s, and understood how the system worked, became interested in updating the decades’ old designs.

    Numerous witnesses, including two of Rohner’s brothers, who assisted in building several of the prototypes 30 years ago reported that the device actually worked. Over the last five years, Rohner has worked on improving the original Papp engine to the point where it is a useful and commercially viable device and is ready to be brought to market. He claims to have greatly improved on the older designs – Papp’s patents taken out in the 1970’s have long since expired — and Rohner has patented the updated designs. For anybody interested, Rohner’s company has a web site – – that provides considerable additional information.

    Now we get to the key question – is this for real and is a paradigm changing development about to be revealed on the world? As one can see from Rohner’s web site, his company plans to reveal a working engine at the PowerGen conference in Orlando on December 11th 2012. At the conference, not only is Inteligentry to display an operating “plasma transition” engine as Rohner is now calling the device, but 8-10 engine manufacturers who have licensed the technology are supposed be there and ready to take orders for working engines.

    Needless to say, anyone who can come up with an inexpensive replacement for oil, coal, and natural gas, and all the renewable sources of energy for that matter, has a shot at becoming the world’s first trillionaire. Rohner has refused all requests for a public demonstration of a working plasma transition engine prior to the official debut in December, but has released pictures of the device that is supposed to go on sale shortly and extensive technical details as to how it works. However, so far there are no third party verifications that the updated version of the Papp engine is a commercially viable device. For now the only option is to wait out the next four months and see what happens at the official announcement. Read more at

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – seems a well-written and researched piece; kudos to the journalist. It gets the good points and the uncertainties as to whether it’s truth just about right.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      So, I’ve been trying to find out exactly the end to end energy consumption generation – and can’t seem to pin it down.
      Some electrical energy source produces a high voltage spark that excites the gases. Yeah, got that. But how much energy was need to generate the spark? We get standard circular driveshaft motive power out of the engine. And it looks like they hook that up to a whatever – wheels, propeller, generator, pump… But so what. That original spark still needs to get generated 100 time a second (or whatever). That can’t be free. Carbon free energy source? Yeah except for the tons of coal/nat.gas burned to generate the electricity that runs it. So what am I missing? Coils along the cylinders that generate inductive current that produces a spark using their HV micro controller? I’m not seeing it. Where’s the magic? Or is there any?

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Anony, you’re reading my mind.

        Here’s a question I just posed at ecatnews regarding Celani’s demo:

        I’m a believer but as devil’s advocate:

        How would the energy required for ‘loading’ affect Celani’s heat gain? As I recall, Celani did a prolonged loading before he left his lab and another ‘top off’ when he arrived at the conference. Loading requires high pressure and pressure requires energy. Free hydrogen does not exist in nature. How much energy to produce pure hydrogen?

        I doubt that either the “pulse” or Celani’s “loading” requires much energy but they are legitimate questions.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – I think Anony was asking about the Papp process.

        Anony – The magic consists of the gases suddenly expanding as a plasma, and my bet is that there is an LENR process here, probably with the traces of Hydrogen (water) that they haven’t removed. There’s a lot of extra stuff in the Papp patents – most of it simply bad physics and quite a lot put there to confuse people about the simplicity of the process.

        Put a seed amount of tightly-focussed energy in, get some nuclear energy that turns the gas into a plasma and thus gets more energy than you started. The energy is produced as directed kinetic energy – pushes the piston.

        The precise points of how things work are not yet known – as far as I can tell from reading what the various people say. I don’t know why the energy doesn’t come out as heat (undirected kinetic energy) and instead is directed, but it needs scientific investigation to sort that one out. That means it needs some physicists to actually see one running (so they can believe it first) and then take one into the lab to investigate it. With the so-far total absence of a visible running machine, believing that it’s real is the first hurdle.

        If this isn’t a Keely-type scam then it’s a major advance in free energy. If it is a scam (and all the indicators point that way) then it’s a pain in the butt. If John Rohner misses his new December deadline (he’s been missing deadlines for years), then it’s more likely that it’s not true, but if he sells real motors that work then the New Age Cometh.

        Given Bob Rohner’s presentation and McKubre’s endorsement, it’s likely that there’s something there and that a bit of intensive research by scientists (not just mechanical engineers) may find the physics behind it and how to make it work usefully. To get that research requires convincing enough people that there really is a pony in there. Catch-22 again.

      • Craig Binns Says:


        How wise your words are: “With the so-far total absence of a visible running machine, believing that it’s real is the first hurdle.”

        If I were you, I wouldn’t even bother trying to jump this hurdle. The thing is obviously yet another phoney perpetual motion device, with added electric flim flam.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Craig – I think it’s a bit more complex than that. To start with I’d written this one off as a scam, since apart from the original Papp demo there has been nothing to back anything up. Bob Rohner put up a video of Papp’s engine on a dynamometer, and there’s documentation to back things up there, but if it was running then it would be easy to let people see it running. Hasn’t happened – the inference there is that they can’t.

        Papp may have fooled everyone including the Rohners – looks like he was mad enough. Bob Rohner has demonstrated his popper in front of an audience – no details of energy balance, but at least some indication that there’s something there. Looking at Bob Rohner it seems to me that he really thinks it works, but can’t make one reliably.

        I’d reckon the chances are 60/40 that there’s a pony in there somewhere, and given a few more scientists investigating it we could well find a breakthrough. If so, that’s of extremely high value to the world, in the same way as LENR will be.

        If you’ve been following Celani, you’ll find that he’s now most of the way to getting repeatable LENR. He’s producing 20W from a wire that’s around a metre long and 0.2mm diameter, and this will scale up pretty easily and is controlled mainly by temperature. He’s been doing this work a long time, working on the basics rather than Edisonian experiments. To me, it looks like he’ll be the first with a useful commercial product, but he’s slow and thorough, so it’ll be a year or two before that happens. Defkalion may solve their problems in the meantime – depends on how many good new ideas they can generate and test. Rossi, as far as I can tell, does not now have a working reactor, although the early ones probably worked now and again. Luckily Rossi is not the only one working on LENR.

        The Papp engine probably has something real happening – there are a lot of strange things in modern physics theory and experiments. I’m not going to write it off as fairy-tale just yet. Even a scam can be based on truth – possibly the most successful ones.

      • brucefast Says:

        I’m kinda with Craig on this one. There is a possibility, I guess, that the Papp somehow taps into the LENR effect. There certainly are a gazillion inventors who are either totally frauds, or who have convinced themselves that with just a bit more work, their machine will really begin to work.

        The third possibility, that Papp really demonstrates a truly new energy phenomenon, well, remote at best in my mind.

        If the Papp effect is really as simple as compressing a noble gas, zapping it with electricity, and poof you get expansion far beyond the energy put in for the zap, well, I’ll get out the worcester sauce and get a bunnet from Craig.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – I don’t think it’s really simple, since if that were so then one of the 4 or 5 companies currently promising to sell it (or some back-shed engineer) would have put one on the market by now. If it does work, I can only see the energy source being some sort of nuclear energy. Note that Papp’s original patents had the cylinder filled with chlorinated water before putting the gases in, and that it used radium, we do at least have Hydrogen and sparks in there, with various catalysts such as cast iron and stainless steel. Given the difficulties in getting a “simple” Nickel-Hydrogen reaction going, it’s possible people haven’t hit the right conditions since Papp did it – he appears to have never passed on the secret. The secret may have been a hidden air-line, of course, but it seems the demo that Feynman witnessed was probably not faked.

        Could be a load of baloney of course, and Craig could be right on this one. It’s probably worth a bit of effort to check out, though. For reference, I do buy lottery tickets, too.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – I don’t know whether you read Vortex, but I find myself mostly in agreement with Abd ul-Rahman Lomax. Read what he’s written today about this subject at . The Vorticians are into fringe sciences and trying to get a handle on strange things – some clever ideas at times, as wel as some outrageous ones.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Here is the bottom line when it comes to all of these new energy discoveries, and it’s a sentiment I spoke of way up near the top of this massive post:

        To discover, verify and release into the world, for free, a new energy generation technique that is capable of completely changing the world would reap magnitudes of greater benefit for the discoverer than trying to avariciously capitalize on the discovery through patents and licensing.

        The corollary being that to think first of yourself, your greed, of securing patents, payments, and licensing is to publicly announce your fraud.

        Why would anyone spend a lifetime in search of a new energy source that would supplant fossil fuels if not for the benefit of all humanity? If riches and greed were your intent spending a lifetime or even a fifth of a lifetime in pursuit of such a noble cause would the LAST thing you’d pursue. Avarice is much better served through thievery, fraud, investment banking and market trading.

        The conclusion therefore is that all of these players who are in it for the money, primarily, and the benefits to society secondarily, are therefore frauds. That true discoverers of life altering technologies never think of themselves first, that they are altruists in the purest sense.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon said, “The Vorticians are into fringe sciences and trying to get a handle on strange things – some clever ideas at times, as wel as some outrageous ones.”

        The Vorticians seem highly educated and intelligent, but I never see any reference to any experimentation or attempts at replication. They are also very cocksure of their beliefs and intolerant of opposing viewpoints, resorting to name calling and ganging up on their opponents. In other words, they are much like patho-skeptics.

        I read almost everything they write but I could never exist on their site. The participants on nickelpower are much more civil.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Anony said, “Why would anyone spend a lifetime in search of a new energy source that would supplant fossil fuels if not for the benefit of all humanity?”

        I believe capitalism, based on self-interest, works just fine. Most highly successful capitalists end up their careers by giving most of their wealth away. Why? Because it makes them feel good.

        Anony, you do whatever you want but please don’t try to dictate my behavior or my motivations. If you’re compassionate, give, give, give, but give what’s yours to give, don’t assuage your guilt by forcing others to give, via taxation.

      • brucefast Says:

        Anony, “Why would anyone spend a lifetime in search of a new energy source that would supplant fossil fuels if not for the benefit of all humanity?…”

        Anony, I totally agree with you. In support of your case, I looked up “Banting” in wikipedia. (He, as you may know, gave the discovery of insulin to the world.) Well, he got the nobel (which he shared with his partner Best). Further, the Canadian government funded all of his future research. While he may have been able to become a gazillionare, he did right handily for himself. And he made the treatment of diabetes significantly less expensive, thank you very much.

        Now, is Iggy right also? Yup. We have no right to tell others how to handle their discoveries and inventions. I think we can make a suggestion, however.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – let’s say that I, on a minute budget, solve this problem and give the results free to Mankind. I also have some other ideas that would be as useful, maybe more. Without the money to develop them (it’ll cost more to do them) it’s going to take much longer to do. It may not happen. Who gains?

        Is it not better to make a reasonable profit, so that I can finance the next developments? For the other people working in this, they have invested a load of money (mostly other people’s, who do want paying back) – should this be just written off? The kit to do all the measurements is very expensive, and people do need to eat and live while they are trying to find the answers.

        If this works out the way we are expecting, then the extra cost per item will not be that much, and overall the customer won’t worry about this after the first year of ownership (or less) since they will be better off.

        The quote that comes to mind is “the good workman is worth his hire”, and this really applies. Take away the motive of personal profit from your own work, and you get the Communist ideal – and note that both China and Russia are getting much higher standards of living since they became somewhat more capitalist. Iggy had some quotes last week.

        If you decide that people should not profit from such a thing, then no-one will bother to do the work (OK, I would, but I’m financed by a small pension). If no-one does the work, then the world will not get the device, and no-one profits at all. The choice is really between accepting that the inventor profits, or that the invention doesn’t get done. The only inventors left would be rich people who wanted something to occupy their time (Newton was such a person). Not many of those around these days.

        Iggy – it has been a bit vituperous, hasn’t it?

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I believe that the biggest motivation for inventors is that they enjoy being creative. The biggest motivation for getting a patent is to make money, but they usually fail to profit.

        “INSULT TO INJURY.” In truth, odds are stacked astronomically against inventors, and no marketing outfit can change them. “There are around 1.5 million patents in effect and in force in this country, and of those, maybe 3,000 are commercially viable,” Maulsby says. “It’s a very small percentage of patents that actually turn into products that make money for people. On top of all that, to get ripped off for tens of thousands of dollars adds insult to injury.”

      • Bob Says:

        I think there are a lot of patents that make a lot of money, but for the assigned company, not the inventor. Most companies pay their employee for turning in a patent, typically $500 to $1000 and from that point the inventor has no more say, the money made on royalties go to the company.

        There is/was an attempt to change this going forward, where companies had to pay some percentage of the money they made to the inventor. Being a skeptic, I’m betting that aspect of the new patent laws will be passed, big corporate dollars will rule.

        The majority of patents are owned by corporation. The lone inventor is typically hard pressed to pay for the patent, typically $10k each, so when an inventor on his own finds a buyer they typically cash in early and do not ride the patent to its riches. To realize the true value one must be prepared to pay big legal fees and wait years for any money, most individuals are happy with a modest sum and just move on.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        It seems to me that if you really wanted to make money you’d go work for a bank or an advertising company. Normally in engineering there’s not much more than a living. A patent doesn’t actually stop anyone copying your ideas – in fact it makes it a lot easier since the patent should tell them how to make it (and also means they can do something a bit different and get round the patent). What the patent gives you is the right to take someone to court if they do copy it, but you’d better have deep pockets to pay for such court action. That is probably why most patents are corporate-owned.

        A lot of this imbalance between the idea-generator (poor) and the idea-user (rich) also applies to the basic research in Science that we all take for granted. Look in the jobs section of “New Scientist”. You’ll find graduates wanted for research – pay around £15-20K. If that graduate got a job in a City institution (stocks, banks, traders etc.) he/she could earn 10 times that. People search for knowledge because they want to, and the money has to be enough to make ends meet.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Here’s an odd bit of trivia. Physicist Peter Buck earns over $1,500,000 per week. You’ll never guess how.

        Back in the ’60s he loaned $1,000 to a 17 yr old family friend to start a sandwich shop. Today, he and the kid share $160 million a year from sole ownership in Subway Restaurants.

  165. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Well, I guess “Mint Candy” is also an aspiring replicator at vortex.
    I would advise him to avoid speaking about politics or religion, unless he knows how to blend into the landscape.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – Jojo also said he was making things and had Loadsamoney to do it with, but other clues point to this being just talk not action. You’re right, though – here is much more polite and open to thinking about things rather than instant dismissals or religious intolerance.

  166. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Government is the problem, not the solution.

    A woman may be fined $600 for each day she provided free food to children in a poor Philadelphia neighborhood for the past few months.

    Angela Prattis, 41, of Chester Township has been distributing free healthy lunches in a neighborhood that has a per capita income of $19,000 a year.

    Prattis made no money from the meal distribution, and gave out food provided by the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. The “lunch lady” ran the charity out of her garage, to which about 60 children came, five days a week.

    • Bob Says:

      Our government is starting to act like a bunch of storm troopers.
      A women in Arizona was arrested and fined for passing out water bottles to people in a park gathering, the temperature was about 110.
      A man here in Oregon was fined and is serving 30 days in jail, as we speak, for collecting rain water on his property.
      Several cities in Florida and Philadelphia have arrested people for feeding the poor.
      A guy named Brandon Raub was arrested in Verginia for posting comments about the government on his Facebook account.

      The government is getting out of control.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      And we think Putin acts like a tyrant? I suspect these things are becoming world-wide rather than only in the “repressed” countries. In the UK, KP (in cricket) has been fined and dropped from the UK team for Twitter comments, and also a footballer (Ferdinand) has been fined (£30K IIRC) for Twitter comments.

      Seems like the right to free speech is somewhat eroded.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Anything you say and tweet can be held against you in a the court of society. People just haven’t learned that tweeting is not speaking, tweeting is forever. Spoken words vanish as soon as they’re said (unless recorded of course, which is rare). If people realized that everything they spoke would be recorded and then judged by society, how careless would people be with their epithets and slurs?

        Not that we should ever lose our rights of free speech, but allowing society to judge your character through what you tweet is fair and just in my book.

        And as for the police state we are entering, I attribute that to the corporate ownership of Congress. This is a recurring theme throughout history, repress the rabble, elevate the autocrats. And continue to create policy that expands this dichotomy. Keep it up until the tipping point is reached, and then, wham! Revolution. Fortunately this country has the means of averting such complete rebellion: replacing entrenched Congress members with our votes. Replace all of Congress in 2012,14,16. Tell Congress that they are powerless without our consent.

  167. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Joe Shea’s Novella

  168. Craig Binns Says:

    Iggy, what a wonderful novella! Thank you for sharing it with us. Now, back to the question of whether or not Rossi is the genuine article. Can his supporters here take his promise of an important announcement to be made soon as a deadline? And if he fails to deliver anything significant, or engages in any further procrastination, evasion or misdirection, they should give him up as a very probable fantasist or charlatan, as I did long ago.

    This is important, as Rossi has seemingly appointed licencees, including a colourful Mr Proia in Italy. And if Rossi is indeed insane or a crook, these licencees, and any investors, stand to lose money. So if he’s for real, now is the time for him to demonstrate his honesty, and the reality of the ecat, once and for all.

  169. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Craig, as I understand it, Rossi will reveal abreviated results of his “Hot Cat” test at his Sept 8 Convention in Zurich. Rossi also promises a more detailed report will be published in an engineering journal. Rossi further claims that a “Hot Cat” will be turned over to the Univ of Bologna for scientific testing after which, the university will publish detailed reports on the performance of his device. At this point, all we can do is wait…..well, no, you don’t have to wait. You can continue to rant and rave, but few will listen. Actually, few will pay attention to the UniBo report. They will likely remain oblivious to reality until it slaps them in the pockbook…after various utility companies begin to utilize Hot Cats to reduce their costs.

    Will Rossi deliver? I dunno, but I choose to hope so.

  170. Craig Binns Says:


    Thank you for that detail. For how long do you intend to “wait” for Rossi to do these things he has undertaken to do? If nothing significant emerges from the Sept 8 Zurich Convention, what will you do? Continue to “wait”? When does Rossi intend to publish in the journal? Has he told his supporters? When does he intend to turn the ecat over to Bologna university? Iggy, you will recall that we have heard stuff like this before, and nothing came of it. Meanwhile Mr Proia is looking for investors.

    Now as soon as utilities start using ecat to reduce their costs (presumably with the sanction of the Florida Board of Radiation Control, and other similar regulatory bodies) I will at once concede with great joy the reality of the Rossi machine. But there is no sign of utilities doing any such thing. How long do you advise me to “wait” before deciding that this is not in fact going to happen?

    At the present time, the only financial transactions arising from the e-cat seem to be the establishment of a pyramid of licensees bidding for the right to sell these contraptions in various countries, or regions within countries. We are familiar with this as a scam procedure. The magic machine never appears, but “dealerships”, licences, etc are sold to gullible speculators. Now I am entitled to reassure myself, within a defined and reasonable time, that Rossi really does have a machine. And nobody should simply wait indefinitely for it to appear.

    To make these rational points is not ranting and raving, as you know perfectly well.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Craig – Whereas I thought before that Rossi had something that sometimes worked, I think the current incarnation of hot-cat can’t work unless Rossi is lying about what’s in it. I think he’s fooling himself with his measurements. I also think he believes he’s got the goods and just needs a bit more experimentation time to get it right.

      As regards investors, it’s always due diligence required and very much caveat emptor. If you look at the “free energy” field in general you’re bound to notice that it’s a mixture of scams and honest people who are fooling themselves, with some bits where you can see a possible underlying truth. I’ll point at where the basic idea looks to be true, and the guy certainly seems honest, but there are let’s say a few little problems in getting it manufactured and usable, and the odd missed deadline or four. And licenses cost a million dollars each….

      The number of dealerships and other more secret sources of money to keep these people in “research” does make all of us think “scam” – you’re not alone. In the real world, however, development of pretty well any new technology does take a lot of money and time, and if those investors weren’t ready to put the money up, a lot of things would simply not get done.

      For you and me, waiting for the promised technology and following the various announcements and missed deadlines, it’s simply a problem of hopes being dashed – we have no money invested. Rossi appears to have abandoned a path that partially worked and seems to have been dazzled by the prospect of really high temperature operation (get those steam-turbines running well!) to the wrong path – he’s also not fixed his calorimetry and learnt the odd bit of radiation physics in order to do a reality-check. As such, I’m currently not holding out much hope that he’ll give any satisfactory results next month. On the other hand, Brilloin are chugging along and seem to be slowly getting towards a product, Defkalion seem to have something real but currently unreliable, and Celani has got the basic metallurgy nailed and is continuing with the basic research. Celani could do a real kW-sized demo any time he wanted to (just needs more wire) but he’s getting his ducks in a row and understanding what he’s doing. That’s why I currently think Celani has the best chance of being first with a saleable item – he’s getting the understanding before going for the big stuff.

      For a long time, Bruce has been telling you that Rossi is not the subject, but that the reaction Nickel-Hydrogen is. Rossi just made it popular and made people take notice. If, as looks likely, he’s not going to deliver then he’s done us a service by getting it publicised and thus Celani has had better prospects of funding. I’m not putting a timescale on Rossi – Jed Rothwell at seems to have information under NDA that is more positive than we’ve seen, so he might yet surprise all of us. One thing I’m not going to do is believe it’s ready for sale to us mortals until I’ve seen them in the shops. Could be some time….

  171. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Simon, have you considered visiting the E-Cat convention in September?

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – not enough money to do that. It would be nice to meet the people in the news, but it’s far more cost-effective (free…) to look at the reports afterwards. I don’t really expect any good news from it, anyway – it’s more of a boondoggle than giving out real information. It’s also a bit safer – I might get chucked out for pointing out errors in the measurements. As I’ve said here, there have to be a few of those.

      If there are exciting announcements, it’s likely that there will be no data backing them up (new factories, mass-production Next Year, things like that) and I’d probably leave wondering what I got for the time and money.

      With Rossi, I’ll wait for the University of Bologna tests before I start to believe he’s got a working hot-cat, since what he says he’s doing and what results have been leaked do not gibe. If the Nickel is in there to grow Carbon nanotubes that then do the work, then his Nickel will need to be replaced every time it heats up – it won’t be nanoparticles after going up to 1100°C. My estimate of the power-out of that “leaked” hot-cat data is somewhere in the region of 3kW, not 14, judging on the colours and sizes, and funnily enough this is what heat is going in – needs calorimetry there, not estimates.

      Best advice at the moment is to watch Celani.

  172. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Totally off-topic, but may be worth checking on for arthritis sufferers. I haven’t done much checking on this yet, but it seems genuine and has references.
    On the problems of Boron deficiency in the modern diet and using Borax to counter it cheaply.

  173. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Another noble gas video:

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – somewhat tame as a video, though good voice-over – the guy could make a lot of money as a presenter. By putting so much energy through the neon, he’ll be either going up to second ionisation levels or sputtering the electrodes (thus colour-change), but no evidence of explosive power greater than you’d expect from the unspecified energy involved.

      Although it seems that Bob Rohner is honest and sincere in what he’s doing, so far there’s been no real data on what energy he’s put in and what he’s got out. He’s also saying he doesn’t know why it works. Personally I find him believable (unlike his brother John). Let’s see if there are any developments in the data, and if any real engines appear by Christmas. If nothing turns up by then, I might make some tests myself since this is intriguing – just enough believable stuff that it seems there’s something real there, but no working machines extant.

  174. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    The observed warming will be irreversible for many years into the future, and even larger temperature increases will occur as greenhouse gases continue to accumulate in the atmosphere.

    In that case we may as well relax and enjoy it.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – it’s more likely to get cooler over the next decade. I’ll certainly be planning on that basis, anyway. For Europe, I think LENR will be used more for heating than air-conditioning.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, you live in France not far from Spain, am I correct? (I saw your town on your facebook page) Do you get snow there? Do you produce wine?

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – yup. Around a couple of hours’ drive from Bordeaux, Toulouse and Biarritz. Normally snow for 2-3 days in winter, but this last winter was cold and long, and the Spring was cool and cloudy. Normally I produce some wine, but looks like this year they just won’t ripen enough to be worth harvesting. Normally August is hot and sunny, but this last month has seen not many sunny days and a lot more rain than I’d expect. Meantime it seems that the UK has had the second wettest summer on record – wettest for a century.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      I suppose it’s much more fun being in disagreement than it would be if all of us sang the same tune, eh? Still, you guys are willing to believe the likes of the LENR crowd, yet refute the results obtained by thousands of climate scientists. Seems pretty incongruous to me.

      [2+ years old. I’m sure the consensus is up near 99% now.]

      “Although preliminary estimates from published literature and expert surveys suggest striking agreement among climate scientists on the tenets of anthropogenic climate change (ACC), the American public expresses substantial doubt about both the anthropogenic cause and the level of scientific agreement underpinning ACC. A broad analysis of the climate scientist community itself, the distribution of credibility of dissenting researchers relative to agreeing researchers, and the level of agreement among top climate experts has not been conducted and would inform future ACC discussions. Here, we use an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that (i) 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field surveyed here support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and (ii) the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers.”

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anony – read and do some hunting around on his other AGW posts. The data being quoted in support of CO2 causing climate change is simply inaccurate. It’s been handled wrong. If you choose one thermometer that’s been in use for a long time, and look at the overall trend on that alone, you see a different picture. If CO2 were in fact as opaque to IR as the climate scientists want us to believe, a heat-seeking missile would not work.

        What we do have in common (the LENR crowd) is that we look at the data that is there and make our own minds up as to whether it can be believed or not. I started off not believing in LENR till I looked at the data in enough depth, whereas I used to believe AGW until I looked at the data. Often the consensus opinion is safe enough to follow, but there is a problem when it’s just wrong.

  175. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    The few scientists I know, 2 cyber-pals and one from real life, all doubt that man is a significant cause of climate change. None are meteorologists. 1 electro-chemist, 1 biochemistry professor, and 1 veterinary professor.

    Over 31,000 scientists have signed a petition protesting the premise that man causes climate change.

    “Consensus is what many people say in chorus but do not believe as individuals.” – Abba Eban

  176. Craig Binns Says:


    If a majority sign the petition, does that mean that the premise that man creates climate change is wrong? What a strange way to settle a scientific controversy! Mind you the Indiana state legislature once nearly passed a law changing the value of pi.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Craig – consensus can be either right or wrong, but it’s still what the accepted truth is. The important thing is what effect that consensus opinion has on what laws are passed and how well people live. In the case of AGW, my reading of the actual data is that the changes in temperature seems to be based on the Sun’s output rather than what humans are doing. Historically, high CO2 levels have followed high temperatures, rather than the other way round. There’s also some evidence that an extra 2°C, if it happens, would be a major positive for humans overall, though a problem for some. See .

      One thing those 31000 scientists have is an alternative consensus view. If nothing else, this means that the basic premises of AGW need to be re-examined to check for truth.

      The climate models used to predict all these dire consequences need to be published, so that hackers round the world can find the errors built-in as assumptions of how the world climate works. At the moment it’s all secret, yet the results of these simulations are used to drive international policies and an awful lot of money.

      In the future (if we get there in one piece) the AGW hypothesis will go down as a major failure of both science and politics.

  177. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    No Craig, it would only prove that the argument is not settled. The vast majority of people and scientists once believed that the sun and stars revolved around the earth. The Florida legislature once tried to legislate the abolition of “dog days”.

  178. Craig Binns Says:

    “The vast majority of people and scientists once believed that the sun and stars revolved around the earth.” Finally some old conservative rascal organised a petition and the heliocentrists won. So now the earth goes round the sun. Eh?

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Craig – in a relativistic view you can use either statement, it’s only that the maths works out easier if you regard the Sun as the centre of the solar system. IIRC, the Sun itself describes a small orbit about the centre of gravity of the system that is actually outside the surface of the Sun. People a long way away could tell of the existence of planets by watching this wobble – it’s one of the ways we are looking for exoplanets.

      Consensus in science changes as new data comes to light and is accepted. People in general have a problem with discarding the knowledge they have worked with for a long time and accepted as true when a new explanation is proposed. One reason it’s said that acceptance of new ideas proceeds funeral by funeral.

      Consensus is only what most people accept as the best explanation of things at the time. Normally it’s going to be a good idea to accept it – if it didn’t work well enough for the purposes it wouldn’t be consensus. Sometimes, though, it’s just wrong seen in hindsight – for a long time the bankers’ consensus view was that sub-prime mortgages were a good security to own and to sell, and look where that got us. AGW will be seen as just as wrong in around 8 years when we’re freezing our butts off.

  179. Craig Binns Says:


    “AGW will be seen as just as wrong in around 8 years when we’re freezing our butts off.” You’re prejudging the issue. Not “when” but “if”. And even if you are right, what does that have to do with a petition, which has all the hallmarks of a phoney propaganda campaign anyway?

    Cryofusionists keep saying things like this: you pathosceptics will change your tune when the Rossi ecat is on sale in Walmart.

    So we will, so we will! So bring it on, why don’t you?

    Instead, you tell us to have faith, and wait patiently – while Rossi scams the arse off a multitude of fools, and Cyclone pumps and dumps its penny shares. Meanwhile, Defkalion abandons its plans to revive the Greek economy with its magical machines, and heads for the Pacific Coast of Canada.

    You believe this stuff?

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      GlobalFreezing has gotta be right because it was on the cover of Time Magazine.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Craig – any prediction of the future has a degree of probability attached, though normally people aren’t up-front about how much they’re not sure of. It comes down to your own estimate of probabilities in the end, and what your personal gains/losses/chances are as you see them. My own estimate is that the AGW figures are plain wrong and the models being used to project things into the future are wrong too.

      Prejudging? Any prediction must be prejudged as to how much truth is in it. It’s only when the particular time has passed that you can judge truly whether the prediction was right or not.

      I don’t know whether a petition is ever going to make any real difference, but I suppose 31,000 scientists’ signatures should say there’s something worth re-checking there somewhere. Propaganda? I don’t see where that accusation arises.

      You’ve also missed the fact that I’ve been pointing away from Rossi to other people for a long time. Although it seems Rossi’s Master Plan consists of being unbelievable, for me at least he’s managed it and I don’t expect any goodies from him for a good few years. I could be wrong on that, of course. On the other hand Celani has sorted out the basics and has working public demonstrations. Brillouin are getting closer to a real mass-manufacturable system. The argument now is not whether it’s possible, but whether it’s going to be commercially useful and when. Also, I expect regulatory approvals to take longer than usual, which is going to delay the sales in Wal-Mart of any LENR device.

      I’m not quite sure where the Cyclone fits in here. It’s a neat idea but needs high temperatures to make it work effectively. Obviously investors think much the same, which is why they are penny shares.

      One reason to keep picking on Rossi to attack is that he’s the least scientific and least-believable of the people known to be working in LENR. It’s easy to show him to be untrustworthy, and thus by association pan the rest of the work being done. I for one don’t accept that – you need to look at each one to decide their merits.

      Iggy – second picture is freezing under, not over…. I remember well the predictions of a new Ice Age coming back in the 70’s. There’s got to be something to keep people scared of the future.

  180. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I’ll admit, I’m a hopeless dreamer. I bought Cyclone at 46¢,
    now it’s at 14¢. I still own it. It’s more fun focusing on the
    silver lining. I don’t believe Harry Schoell is a scammer. I may never get my money back but I do believe the engine will be adapted somewhere in the market.

    Yes, both Schoell and Rossi know how to manipulate the public and how to needle the skeptics. Randall Mills also has that ability.

    Cyclone has 10 issued US patents and many international patents. Rossi only has the Italian patent and BlackLight’s US patent has been reversed.

    The big-business establishment is reluctant to try anything new.

    EcoMotors has an opposed piston engine which is backed by Bill Gates and Khosla Ventures.
    The truck manufacturer, Navistar Intl., has a development contract with Ecomotors.

  181. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    In case you’re not watching, Rossi is on live right now.

  182. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Astronaut Harrison Schmitt, the only scientist to land on the moon, and adjunct professor of engineering physics at the University of Wisconsin–Madison has said that “the CO2 scare is a red herring”, that the “global warming scare is being used as a political tool to increase government control over American lives, incomes and decision-making,” and that scientists who might otherwise challenge prevailing views on climate change dare not do so for fear of losing funding.

    • Anony Mole Says:

      Well, I thoroughly enjoy reading politically positioned, agenda oriented, pseudo-science type articles that undoubtedly twist the facts and probably just out-n-out lie, like this one:

      I mean, the way Dana attempts to warp the truth by citing all those data supported research articles, psha! Got to be nothing but political maneuvering. And the way the author uses so called “research data facts” to attempt to argue against natural variability. Come on! The earth wobbles – it’s just wobbling a lot more now. I’m sure the author was just delusional to think they could connect all those disparate, yet seemingly accurate studies to infer the anthropogenic caused melting of Arctic sea ice. No doubt this author is in cahoots with some self interest group; Dike Builders of America, or Siberian Wheat Growers Collective, or the new Bleached Coral Sand industry.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Anony, how did you guess? I’ve actually retained Bruce to scout out level, fertile, well watered Yukon land for post-calamity grain production. I’m also buying up future ocean front condo sites in Tennessee, Missouri, and Arkansas.

  183. Craig Binns Says:


    Cyclone, as far as I can see, sells no products and has never paid a dividend. It took advantage of the CF and Rossi steam flap to pump and dump its shares. Its own auditors warned against it on the grounds of an inadequate income stream. Iggy, these crooks stung your ass.

    Basically that’s what “free energy” in all its multitudinous manifestations is all about. Parting people whose enthusiasm overwhelms their common sense from their money.

    It has as much to do with science or engineering as a televangelist swindler has to do with John the Baptist.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Craig – if Rossi had been telling the truth, Cyclone could have taken off. It is a nice bit of engineering, after all. If they can hang on till Celani gets a commercial system out, then they’ll make some money at last.

      Not every “free energy” device is a scam. Check out for something that is installed and working, and you can actually buy one. NASA claim to have designed the bearings for him, and you can search this on the NASA website too. I had the link but didn’t save it. People who installed the pump for heating have shown a 30% or so reduction in electricity bills – pretty conclusive it works.
      However, you’re mostly right since that’s the only example I know of. The rest are either self-deluded or scams, but I hope that there will be some other real ones this year.

      Thanks for the smile on a Sunday morning.

    • brucefast Says:

      Craig Binns, “It took advantage of the CF and Rossi steam flap to pump and dump its shares.”

      I call “bull shit”. While I have promoted cyclone as a company that should succeed when LENR gets out the door (which it hasn’t yet), I have seen no indication from Cyclone whatsoever that they have given one moment of thought to CF, Rossi or anything else. Cyclone power far preceded the whole Rossi thing. Their latest hoopla was over a sale to the U.S. Navy.

      Further, when LENR gets past the barrier of denial created by illogical skeptics like yourself, I still well suspect that Cyclone power will come into its own — and those of us who own shares will do just fine.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I emailed the chief business officer of Cyclone about 18 months ago and alerted him to E-Cat. He acted like he’d never heard of it and said he would check into it. I would bet that there has been visitation between between the 2 groups.

      • Craig Binns Says:


        It’s not the barrier of denial created by sceptics like me that is the problem; it’s the fact that neither Rossi nor Defkalion have anything they can, or want to, show for all the time, energy and labour they have already expended. And that by far the simplest explanation for their weird behaviour – interminable delays, repeated unkept promises, and incredible statements – is that they are intentionally deceiving the public for financial gain.

        If anyone is being “illogical” it is you and other fanboys who credulously accept what you are told, even after repeated disappointments, when you should have said long ago, put up or shut up!

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I think Rossi has shown remarkably fast progress and he’s been as generous as possible, in showing his device considering he has no patent.

        He was certainly overly optimistic in promising a commercial domestic product by late 2011.

        Surely you must have noticed the real progress in the LENR field, which is largely due to the attention brought to the field by Rossi, in spite of your ridicule.

      • brucefast Says:

        Craig, your lack of logic is seen in this statement of yours: “it’s the fact that neither Rossi nor Defkalion…” You seem to have blinders on, disacknowledging the fine work done and well reported by so many others, including top scientists.

  184. Craig Binns Says:


    As a shareholder, you must have received the latest Cyclone quarterly report. If not, here’s a bit of it.

    “Dear Shareholders:

    Greetings from South Florida! Half way through the second quarter of 2012, Cyclone Power Technologies is on the verge of completing important customer contracts, delivering engines, generating revenue, and building a solid foundation for on-going product sales. These are all very exciting developments that lead us to say with confidence — Cyclone is turning the corner. 

    … we would like use this opportunity to provide you with some future visibility. These forward-looking highlights include:

    We are forecasting at least $350,000 in revenue in Q2 2012. We aim never to have another reporting period without generating revenue … ”

    Well, that’s great. After years and years they’re “on the verge” of generating revenue! Just like Rossi and Defkalion are on the verge of generating power. They’ll all stay on this verge for a long time to come, I’ll bet.

    They “aim” not to have another reporting period without generating revenue. Well, that’s a really good aim for the shareholders too. Iggy, my advice is that if they don’t succeed in this “aim”, the shareholders should vote to have the chief executive tarred and feathered, and kicked outta town, like in the good old days.

  185. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Craig, as best as I can remember, I bought Cyclone before I ever heard of Rossi. I have bought several small stakes in ‘energy companies’. I have winners in Maxwell(capacitors), Exide(lead batteries), Siemens, and Lynas(rare-earth metals), and losers in A123, Cyclone, and Axion Power Intl.(carbon neg. electrodes for lead batteries).

    My biggest loser is A123 and I’ll probably do the best with Exide.

    I’ve (hopefully) learned my lesson on investing in new technologies. I’m doing better now concentrating on ‘out of favor’ beat-down stocks like Exide.

  186. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Google Translation (page 2):
    Types of E-Cat industry? 1. E-Cat heat to power ordered and available – Minimum cut: 1 MW? 2. E-Cat heat with gas (Gas Cat) Hydro Fusion Confidential Information? 2. E-Cat heat with gas (Gas Cat) We accept pre-orders – Minimum cut: 1 MW? 3. E-Cat Electric stand-alone Ongoing development – Minimum cut:> 10 MW? 4. E-Cat heat-power cogeneration (Hot Cat) In development with Siemens AG

  187. Craig Binns Says:


    The Siberian Wheat Growers’ Collective certainly exists already! Big grain growing area. According to one source, “Siberia has about 23.5 M ha of arable land, representing about one-fifth of the total arable land area in Russia. Spring cereals such as wheat, barley, oats, and millet, as well as buckwheat, pulses, sunflower, potato, and vegetables are traditional crops in Siberia.”

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Russia, Canada, and Greenland are the 3 countries that would likely benefit the most from extreme GW. Eric the Red’s plantations could be revived.

  188. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Discouraging news: Swedes get cold feet.

  189. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    David Farnsworth on September 19, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    My dear friends in this community I said a year ago that you can achieve a COP of over 250 I said it on this blog and it can be done safely as well as I have said this two very important people who know that this is a fact.
    You can go up to temperatures as high as 3500°and higher as well and do it safely I know because I’m doing it myself and I am also doing it without nickel and in some cases with very little nickel. I have never been out here trying to impress anybody by staying on this blogs and talking a lot nor am I going to put my experiments out in the public because I am light years ahead of what everybody else is doing and if people can’t accept that then that is just simply too bad. I will sell my systems to people who are really interested in coming and taking a look. and we are only interested in qualified people.
    Everyone have a wonderful day.
    PS . People never know how to receive the truth when the truth is spoken directly in front of them or they are shown the truth and sometimes the egos are just so big that they can not see the truth regardless of what is said. And I find that to be very sad
    Warmest regards to all.
    Re: Low Energy Nuclear Reaction or LENR

    Unread postby vision-master » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:31 pm
    I said in a statement before that I was not going to say anymore but now I feel I must, in light of the facts that Defkalion has gone dark because they are overwhelmed with emails, and people are making outrageous statements that make no sense.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to make a statement. It is about time that the whole world understands how this simple technology works. The key to understanding this technology is terminal resistance and surface area. Once the material is fired by a pulse or repetitive pulses, almost like what you would have in a car’s distributor, the nickel and hydrogen in the reactor will now produce a simple burst of energy controlling the duty cycle and the Rep rate of the pulse. As a matter of fact, nickel is not the only material that can be used. There are 15 other elements in powder form that can be used and COP’s can be reached as high as 250 and greater. The momentary ignition that produces a tiny amount of radiation is due to the ignition of the hydrogen at plasma temperatures, because the material is acting like a resistor that is saturated with hydrogen. Once the material has ignition internally at a molecular level, then you get a tiny impulse of gamma radiation; but very very small and usually always just once, and that is until the material heats up again. Once this takes place there is no need to worry about any radiation. I now believe that it is possible to go beyond that I have learned and experimented, with plasma technology and pulse impulse systems that can drive nanomaterials to extreme temperatures and high outputs. Defkalion should be reaching COP’s as high as 50 with a multi-chamber device as they described in their prints. With the research that they are doing now, they will find that a multi-stage firing system is one way to go about it, once they discover that the surface area and the terminal resistance is the key to understanding how this technology works.

    My warmest regards to all,
    Dave Farnsworth
    Global Energy Systems
    It Can´t Happen Here


    Posts: 8544
    Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:00 am
    Location: Out of this World

    Re: Low Energy Nuclear Reaction or LENR

    Unread postby vision-master » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:36 pm
    Navy Secretary Ray Mabus: ‘Our Responsibilities Have to be Tied in to the Effects of Climate Change’

    The Navy has always led when we’ve changed energy. In the 1850’s, we went from sail to coal. In the early part of the 20th century, we went from coal to oil. We pioneered the use of nuclear for transportation in the 1950’s. Every single time we did these things there were people who said ‘it’s a fad.’ There were people who said ‘you’re trading one very known source of propulsion or energy for something that’s unsure – too expensive or just won’t work.’ And every single time they were wrong. Every single time. And I am absolutely confident those folks are going to be wrong this time too.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – that’s interesting. If he had the technology a year ago then where did it go to? Unless people tried it of course, but looks like (from the site) that they only license their ideas.

      Could be I’m being too cynical, but I have this nice bridge that I’m looking for a buyer for.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        Does it go to Brooklyn or Tarabithia?

        This post really needs a new start… Maybe a few new ones. Alt_energy, Alt_politics, Alt_weather, Alt_social…

      • BobN Says:

        Simon – I’m look to acquire a bridge, maybe you would be interested in a swap of my transformation generator, It has several settings, but I just leave it on the Lead to Gold conversion, it seems to be the setting of choice.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Help! My generator is stuck on gold to lead.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        I spent some time reading Iggy’s link to the Thrive debunk. Here is another person (David Farnsworth) saying he’s got overunity machines but he’s NOT going to show anybody either a working machine or give out any details unless they pay him a million dollars a month. As such, the claim above that he can do LENR at 3500° (C or F? presume F) with a simple system (that he also won’t describe or show unless he’s paid a fortune) should be taken with a large spoon of Sodium Chloride.

        Unfortunately the Gold to Lead transmutation is the default setting when the Tanzanium levels are low, and you need to reset the vaporware to regenerate it.

      • David Farnsworth Says:

        Simon why don’t you find out something about the individual before you make ridiculous statements I think you need to take a spoonful of this stuff you are putting out there.

      • David Farnsworth Says:

        Simon you need to quit making ridiculous statements you need a giant spoonful of that stuff your self

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        David – (if it is you, that is) I read up what what is available on the net. Yes, the tone of my comment is not polite, but I really do not believe that you have what is stated. Anyone who genuinely believes he or she has an overunity machine that could improve the lives of of a lot of people (and maybe avert the odd war or three) and refuses to show anyone without an upfront fee of a million dollars does not deserve my politeness.

        So – do you have such a machine? If you do, and you’re scared of PTB squishing you if you try to profit from it, just publish the plans and theory on somewhere like PESN and send copies to all the newspapers, journals, whatever you can think of. Once publicised that far, there is no pulling it back and people who built it would send you money in gratitude. Not all of them would, of course, but enough to make you wildly rich. And justly famous, too, if you want that. Not only that, but you’d get an abject apology from me.

        As it stands, I do take what you say with Sodium Chloride, so maybe you didn’t understand what I said.

  190. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Philo T Farnsworth, inventor of electronic television, invented the “fusor” in 1964.

    I don’t know if David Farnsworth is related to the late Philo.

  191. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Interesting vortex post:

    Last year I had a private email from Charles (Chuck) Sites — who has given me permission to post :

    I was reading Vortex-L and followed your link. I’m an old cold fusion guy but pretty much a lurker. I found your article on Rossi’s E-Cat to be very interesting.

    Here is a story about CF, from 1984 with Pons and Flieshman announced their discovery, I was a young excited physics student, and immediately want to test the concept of CF. I didn’t have palladium, nor deuterium. So I was looking for an alternative. I was thinking, Boron has a very large cross section (Q factor) and B11 could easily cold fuse given the right circumstances. So looking at what I had, what would be a good source of Ni? Not knowing it’s metal makeup I choose an American nickel 5-cent piece. (75 percent copper, 25 percent Ni) This was the Anode. A source of Boron, would be Borax (Na2B4.10H2O). The cathode, I used graphite. This was hooked up to a 65 Watt 5 Volt supply from an IBM PC. To my surprise, the Nickel got extraordinarily hot. Too hot to touch, and I melted several plastic p tree dish before changing to jars. I was always able to bring pint of water to 80C after running for about 8 hours.

    Other metals used for the Anode, showed no indications of even being warm. (Steel, Aluminum, Copper, Zinc). So a US 5 cent piece gave great results. I even had a Geiger counter go off once, but it may have been a cosmic ray. Given that, I could never really understand how this Nickel got hot without radiation. I could never get a theory as to how it worked either, in spite of the fact that the experiment is very repeatable.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – I suppose you’ve read the follow-ups, too. I can see people trying this one out, and suddenly you can’t buy anything for 5 cents any longer. Boric acid might be even better than Borax (more Boron and more H for the same mass of powder). This will produce explosive gases, too at 5V. Better maybe to use an adjustable power supply.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      A better title for this thread:

      What this country needs is a really good 5¢ reactor.

      For you furriners…..

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, he says he uses a borax electrolyte. I assume it’s a liquid. What do you reckon he dissolves the borax in? Water? I think some of the guys at vortex are replicating this.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – Yep, they’re trying it. I’m presuming the Borax is simply dissolved in water – this is implied in Chuck’s initial report but the concentration is not specified that I saw. in the UK this experiment would be illegal (“defacing coins of the realm”) and it may work better on some nickels than others. The alloys used tend to change over time to make them a bit cheaper.

        It’s hard to think of a sufficiently accurate way of measuring energy out to be certain this works as a kitchen-table experiment.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Alan J Fletcher adds interesting comments:

        “Electrodes of the nickel-copper, copper-nickel combinations were tried. The Cu cathode/Ni anode produced heat on the Ni anode side. From 20C TO 60C in about 1hr. The heat appears when the black salt form. It took about 3hr to evaporate 15ml of H2O.

        The A/C experiments are interesting. The Ni-Ni, Ni-Cu, Cu-Ni
        combinations all generate heat, however, in the Ni-Cu, Cu-Ni
        combinations, it was the copper that generates heat, not Nickel! The heat seems a little higher too. 20C to about 80C in 3hrs. no salts appear to form, and very, very little gasses evolve. However, the nickel shows some discolorization at the tips of the C-shaped electrodes. Because the Cu electrodes seem to be the source of heat, it throughs a strange twist into the idea of a chemical evolution of heat.

        But since Ni-Ni also generates heat, and Cu-Cu does not, it suggests that a Ni-B compound is a component of the source of heat. A control run of all experiments A/C & D/C with pure H2O showed no heat from any combination of electrodes.”
        Looks like copper is a good electrode mate to the nickel.

        I’ve ordered some supplies and I’m gonna try it. I’m gonna try to use a AC/DC power converter for a power supply. I also may try batteries.

        Hey, just thought of this….why not use a copper vessel and let it be one electrode?

      • Bob Says:

        Iggy – Good luck with giving it a try. Please report back what happens, good or bad. It sure would be humorous if this worked after all the more exotic testing.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I’m a total klutz at handyman stuff. The last time I tried anything similar was when I was about 10 when I added bits of aluminum and lye to a Coke bottle of water with a balloon stretched over the mouth to catch the hydrogen. The bottle melted. I guess I was lucky it didn’t explode.

  192. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Sonic experiments:

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Nice ones, Iggy. Not quite nuclear, though the last one might be. It did look a bit like a Nickel sphere doing the vibrating.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        More info on Davey sonic boiler plus some pics:

        “As a sensitive musician Mr Davey noticed, that there was such a frequency of the motor and propeller buzzing, when the aeroplane cabin and his body were getting into a resonance. At this unique resonance frequency he always was experiencing an influx of heat in his aeroplane cabin. He did not know yet, that in future this phenomenon will be utilised in ultrasonic weapon systems for effective and undetected killing of people. But he decided to test whether the same phenomenon is to appear, if a metal hemisphere which simulates his pilot cabin is submerged in water and is excited into a resonance frequency. So he found two tops from old bicycle bells, joined them together, tuned one of them to 50 Hz frequency, attached electricity wire to each one of them, and thrown them into water. Surprisingly, water started to boil extremely fast. So he made his first heater patent based on this observation. This patent was already registered in 1944. After a hero return from the war, he had a device, which repetitively proved to everyone who measured it, that it has the efficiency decisively exceeding 100%. Realising this, he believed that the world is going to pounce on the opportunity of production and use of this technical miracle. After all, people are full of declarations about apparent saving on energy, resources, about protection of our natural environment, etc. However, the reality turned out to be completely opposite. Immediately after it was experimentally confirmed that the device has unexplainably high efficiency, the heater and the inventor fell into disfavour of various institutions that are interested in selling electricity and that protect the monopoly on electrical power. In the result, this extraordinary invention received an extraordinary treatment! Namely authorities were doing everything in their powers to disallow the production and sale of this heater in New Zealand. One of legal tricks that were used against this heater, was that it was declared officially to be “unsafe to health and life of users”. (Please notice that practically every electrical device working on 220 Volts can be declared unsafe, if someone in the position of authority wishes to put it down.) In turn in New Zealand it is impossible to undertake the production and sale of anything, that is not officially approved by the government. In the result, Mr Davey was fighting for almost 50 years to receive a permit for the industrial production of this heater. And during these almost 50 years, the permission was continually refused to him, no matter what research outcomes he submitted to please authorities, and no matter how hard he tried. But it is interesting, that in Australia an electric jug with a heating element of the design very similar to the Davey’s heater was put in mass production (this Australian jug most probably is produced in there still even today). This Australian jug is working on the principle of electrical resistance of water (i.e. not telekinesis as the heater of Mr Davey does). Water that it heats is a resistor, in which heat is generated because of the electric current flows through this water. This Australian jug is exactly the same “dangerous to the health and lives”, like the telekinetic heater of Mr Davey. Only that it did not encountered in Australia similar bureaucratic resistance because the energy efficiency of it is “normal”. When I met Mr Davey for the first time in 1990, he still was appealing to authorities, and still had a hope to receive a permit for the production of his heater – in spite of these almost 50 years of lost battles with bureaucrats. He was even showing to me a large stock of components he gathered to start a production immediately after the permit is granted to him. However, he gave up the experimental production of research copies of his heater. The design of the Davey’s sonic heater is extremely simple. It actually is composed of two major parts only – see Figure K8 (3) from monograph [1/4]. The most important out of these two parts is a resonating hemispherical bowl (1) made of a sound inducing metal plate. The second part is a buffering hemispherical bowl (2) almost identical in shape to the bowl (1). This second bowl has the radius around 4 mm larger than the resonating hemispherical bowl (1). Both bowls are assembled symmetrically one around the other, means the hemispherical bowl (1) is placed inside of the hemispherical bowl (2). Coin is 32 mm wide = 1.25984 inches / Big bowl approximately 1.75 inches wide and .75 inches thick / Small bowl approximately 1 3/8 inches wide. Of course, apart from these two bowls, the heater also includes a long rod, nuts, washers, and electrical wires. These are to hold it together, to supply electricity to both bowls, and to allow the heater to be submerged into water that it heats. But these other parts are marginal additions only. The major parts are the bowls. During experimental production of this heater, the resonating hemispherical bowl (1) usually is made from an old cover for a bicycle bell. The dimensions of this hemispherical bowl are not important. It is only vital that it falls into a sonic resonance at the frequency of 50 Hertz, and that it has the outer surface which is parallel and equidistant from the external buffering hemispherical bowl (2). To each of these two bowls a different wire of the household electricity supply (i.e. 220 V, 50 Hz) is connected. The heater must be submerged in water that it heat. It brings water to the boiling point extremely fast. More details about the design and operation of this sonic heater is provided in subsection K3.3 from volume 10 of monograph [1/4]. After being constructed, the Davey’s telekinetic heater must be “tuned” in two different manners. The first tuning depends on providing the hemispherical bowl (1) with such frequency of the own oscillations, that makes this bowl to resonate acoustically when a sound of the frequency 50 Hertz is emitted nearby. The second tuning of the heater depends on appropriate selecting the distance “L” between both bowls (1) and (2). On this distance depends the formation of the standing wave between both bowls. Thus it decides about the energy efficiency of the entire heater. From the information that the inventor repeated to me, I gather that the measurements carried out by New Zealand scientists suggested that this heater may consume even less than the equivalent for around 5% of the energy that it generates in form of heat. This would indicate, that the electrical efficiency of this heater is around 2000%. (Means, that the heater produces over 20 times more heat than it consumes electrical energy.)”

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – the resonances would vary with the density (thus temperature) of the water between the bells. If it works, therefore, you’d need two adjustments available that automatically compensated for the damped resonance of the inner bell and adjusted the spacing of the bells in order to achieve the maximum effect. I don’t know whether it’s necessary to pass a current through the water or just vibrate the bells to get the effect. I certainly wouldn’t like to have a dangerous-level voltage running through the water – if the water was salty or otherwise more conductive than normal you could get a lot of gassing and risk of explosion. Still, there are enough details in the description to build one. The only real problem is that it’s on Keelynet….

  193. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      That seems a pretty intelligent idea, but those sprag clutches may not take the impacts that well for long-term use. It’ll need a bit of springing/shock-absorbing to absorb the initial kick where the sprags are not in contact with the pawl. A bit of development, maybe, and it’d be usable and long-term reliable.

  194. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Russ video update on Papp device:

  195. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    For hydrogen, there would be less leakage if the cylinder and head were made of copper or CuproNickel, right?

    I would think using hydrogen is very dangerous. I noticed he had the ceiling fan on high speed. If there was a breach, there could be a violent explosion. Robert Rohner has already warned of the danger, and that was before anyone tried hydrogen.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – The leakage would be less with Copper or Brass, but even with most available strong materials the leakage won’t be fast enough to cause an explosion hazard. I don’t see a problem using rubber or plastic tubing – leakage is measured in weeks. Hydrogen embrittles steel, Nickel, Titanium and quite a few other materials since it is absorbed into the crystal matrix of the material, so there is a limited choice of good materials for the containers, and you’ll need to make them thicker than would be calculated on gas pressure alone to allow for the weakening.

      As I’ve said before, Hydrogen used to be a large component of the “town gas” when I was a kid, before the UK went on to natural gas (mainly methane). The dangers of Hydrogen thus seem to be somewhat overstated to me. During WWII, some transport was modified to have a gas bag on top filled with town gas, as a substitute for petrol.

      With the odd 250cc or so of Hydrogen in the popper, if it all escaped suddenly you’d get a little pop if it ignited. A bigger pop if it was mixed with Oxygen and then fired, but again people are playing with HHO systems and feeding the stoichometrically mixed gases to their motors – I don’t hear of many explosions unless some idiot tries to store and compress a large quantity of the mixed gases.

      It seems Bob Rohner has tried and found that Hydrogen didn’t work in his popper. I think this is because he was using the wrong voltages for Hydrogen (too high) whereas Russ is using lower voltages and higher current, which doesn’t work for the noble gas mix. If Russ were using somewhere around 600-650V on his capacitors, I’d expect he’d find the noble gas mix would work better than Hydrogen at that voltage.

      Russ is exploring the crackpot end of science but using scientific method and an open mind. I think there’s a pony in there somewhere, and he’s got a good chance of finding it.

      If it works, we’ll award him the Noble prize….

  196. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    So far I’m disappointed in my simple 5¢/borax experiment. At first I used a pure nickel electrode in a copper cup(other electrode). When I switched to the nickel coin, the bubble formation did increase and the electrolyte temperature increased to 65°C.

    I couldn’t tell much difference in baking soda and borax.

    My disappointment came when I tried copper/copper and I got the same 65°C. Someone on vortex said he got no heat with Cu/Cu.

    My next project will be to try “Kunifer”(88%Cu/10%Ni/2%Fe) automotive brake tubing. The tubing will extend deeper into the electrolyte. The nickel coin doesn’t extend far and after a few hours the electrolyte gets used up and the coin is left high and dry.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – Did you stress the nickels before electrolysing them? Chuck really abused his by cutting a tab from them and bending it up to attach the croc clip. It’s likely that if you do a bit of overstressing of the metal (twist it back and forth a few times) you will get a few cracks and other surface faults. Another point is that it might take longer babysitting than you feel happy with.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Yes, I sawed down about 1/2 the width and bent the tab over on the wire, and then hammered the tab down. The coin did cause a noticeable increase in electrolysis. What surprised me was that Cu/Cu got just as hot….and I didn’t stress the copper at all. I probably cooked the nickel for 20 hours and Cu/Cu for 30 hours. The copper degrades pretty quick. The heavy copper plate (connected to the positive wire) has eroded about 40%. The nickel doesn’t erode but it turned black.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – I don’t know if you checked out the link on Vortex to where they say Nickel Borate is a good catalyst for splitting water. That could explain the extra bubbles.

        It may be interesting to physically measure the coins first with a caliper or micrometer. It seems it should expand when loaded with Hydrogen. It’s probably a good idea to also try nickels from various dates – there have been some changes in composition. On the other hand, as with P+F, it may take months before you get any anomaly – new territory.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Yes, that was interesting about the nickel borate. I was about to order some nickel borate powder but found that the supplier would not sell it to an individual. Personally, I couldn’t see much difference in the borax and the baking soda.

        I don’t have any scientific equipment such as micrometer or digital scales. I’ve already spent over $300 buying infra-thermometer, power supplier, and various metals.

        Simon, do you think the Cunifer (10% Ni) will provide enough Ni for test? I paid over $50 for 10 ft of 5/16″ cunifer tubing. I like the tubing because makes for a longer electrode and will be easy to bend and stress. Marine 70/30 Cupronickel tubing might be better.

        In Europe you could probably find cunifer brake tubing in automotive salvage yards. It’s not used in American cars.

        I’ll resume my experiment in a few days when the cunifer tubing arrives.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – the Nickel Borate will form at the surface of the nickel in Borax (Sodium Borate).

        There’s not yet enough data as to whether the Cunifer piping works in this way (but it’s good brake piping since it doesn’t rust). I suppose try it and see. Nickel is not that easy to source in hobby amounts, but you may check in model shops – it may be supplied as model railway rails or something of that sort. If you want to try Titanium you’ll also probably get it there, too. I looked for various metals on Ebay a while back, and found ounce ingots of various metals available from coin/medal suppliers. Suppliers in the States, so I didn’t order from them since I found a closer supplier. Academic suppliers are really extremely overpriced, with what looks like a $200 fee for placing an order at all.

        You’ve spent a lot on kit, but I suppose I have those sorts of things around anyway. I use thermocouples for temperature measurement – calibrate against a good glass thermometer if you want absolute temperatures, but it doesn’t need that for differential measurements. Dual-input type K meter around $50 (Maplins, UK). For Nickel here, I have a cut-off of Nickel bar I bought many years ago because it was there at a couple of pounds ($3) for around a pound and a half of Nickel. Enough to heat my house for life if I get it running.

        I won’t be running this experiment here – too much else happening at the moment. I’m interested in the results, though.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Many heat exchangers in home and swimming pool heaters are made of cupronickel but I’m not sure of alloy %. I may check with my HVAC contractor for scrap. I also have a friend that does underwater demolition and repair. He may have some salt water piping.

  197. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Simon, to combine Celani’s and Rossi’s process, would it help to use pre-loaded nanonickel, instead of pre-loaded constantan wire? I guess nickel hydride is pre-loaded nickel.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – anything nano needs special handling precautions – it’s very unhealthy stuff. Add to that that Rossi’s original Ecats only worked sometimes (and not often when being watched) and I’d suggest that it’s a bad idea to try to replicate them. Celani seems to have got both a safer and more reliable system, where the reaction is controlled by heat alone, thus to control it you need to heat it up to required temperature and then control the cooling used (energy taken out) to get a massive COP. It still looks like Celani’s process creates and destroys NAEs thus has a fairly limited lifetime for the active Nickel alloy surface configuration, and that it is basically a random process where the heat comes in a lot of short spikes of extreme heat that are very localised.

      To get the system to work, it looks like it helps if you have a migration of Hydrogen through the Nickel (or other metal). It is not a static process. To make the H migrate (and thus drop into a nascent NAE) you need to vary the pressure cyclically at the correct rate. In the electrolysis method, you’d maybe use partially rectified AC or DC with a lot of variation, but again there will be a “best” frequency of the variation depending on the migration speed of the H concentration. I haven’t worked this out yet, but I’d expect of the order of 1-10 seconds as a good start for the cycle time. Note in the various Pd-D experiments that activity was increased by a step increase or decrease in the electrolysing current.

      Possibly your experiment isn’t working because the power supply you are using is too good and smooth. Maybe try a cheap battery-charger instead? That will be unsmoothed full-wave rectified DC, though maybe even better if you use a diode from a low voltage transformer, so it’s 60Hz rather than 120Hz ripple. You may need a resistor in series to control the current, but better maybe to gradually increase the Borax concentration until you get the right current.

      Using a resistor in series with the diode will give you lower current one way than the other. This will provide some level of recombination of the H2 and O2 at the surface and thus increase the heat output while reducing the gassing, and the H that is absorbed into the Nickel will be subjected to some movement. This will in this case happen on both electrodes, with a bit more on the one that is negative with the higher current.

      Yep – Nickel Hydride will be pre-loaded Nickel – maybe take a NiMH rechargeable cell apart to get hold of some easily. I doubt if it would be nanoscale particles, but it would be pretty small.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Error – I should have said resistor in parallel with the diode, getting a certain current either way (from the AC) via the resistor, and the diode gives you full current the other way. You may also need a resistor in series to limit the maximum current.

  198. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Mark Hugo – Validating Cold Fusion

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I tried 7 times to post another of Mark Hugo’s videos.

      Google “It’s Not HHO: Cold Fusion & The Papp Engine”.

  199. Bob Says:

    Here is a link to a group out of Minnesota developing a Celani kit to do replications and experiments

  200. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    For what it’s worth I’m now testing the cunifer 5/16″ brake tubing. It’s 10% Ni, 88% Cu, and 2% Fe. I like the tubing because it makes for longer electrodes. I’m using a glass straight sided olive bottle. I drilled two 5/16″ holes in the plastic bottle cap. After threading the tubing through the cap, I beat most of the remaining length flat with a sledge hammer. I figured that beating it cause plenty of ‘cracks’. I placed the bottle filled with borax electrolyte in a larger styrofoam jumbo sized cup, with the foam-cup filled with tap water. I placed all that inside a quart sized insulated cooler.

    When I started the temp was 33°C. After 1 hour the temp of the tap water in the foam cup was 62°C. After 2 hours the temp was 72°C. This is the hottest temp I had thus far but I’m using some insulation now. I’m using about 3 1/2″ long cunifer for both the anode and cathode.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      My next measurement the electrolyte was a bit cooler, 65°, I measured the temp of the plastic bottle cap and it was 75°. The positive wire had melted the edge of the plastic cooler.

      One hour later, the current had dropped to zero. It still showed voltage. I pulled the bottle up and the electrode connected to the positive wire was loaded with sediment. Maybe that’s what stopped the current. I did wiggle the alligator clips to see if that would jog the current but it made no difference. Maybe that’s the flaw of using cunifer, it has too much copper, causing the positive electrode to degrade or glop up. I didn’t see this when I used the 5¢ piece, which I believe is 25% nickel.

      So now maybe, I need to find some marine grade cupronickel. Constantan is 45% nickel and Monel is 63% nickel.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Iggy – when using alloys, the less-noble constituent (Copper) is going to degrade somewhat more quickly. It’s likely that an AC electrolysis will give better results. With AC, when the electrode is +ve and Oxygen is generated, both metals will oxidise, but when it is -ve the Nickel will be the first to be reconstituted in the presence of Hydrogen (thus pre-loaded) and the Copper will take a bit longer and will need a higher voltage. The gloop will thus consist of specks of Ni and NiH in a partially-conductive Copper Oxide matrix and may just give you the desired result of excess heat. This may need more voltage to drive the current through it, since you’ve effectively got a battery charged up in the cell.

      You could also try Nichrome resistance wire from an old toaster or hair-dryer or similar. You probably won’t know the alloy precisely, but it’s cheap to get.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, thanks for you advice. Unfortunately my power supply doesn’t offer AC, and I’d be leery of using full 110 house current.

        What about old burnt out thermocouples….aren’t they constantan?

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – yes, thermocouple wire could be used but is just a bit thin. Electric fire or toaster elements are thicker and should be high in Nickel. There’s often a lot of useful materials thrown away as scrap – not worth fixing as such but the bits can be used for something else.

        If you dismantle one of those “wall wart” transformer-based power supplies and take out the smoothing capacitors, you’ll end up with unsmoothed DC, and if you take the power out before the bridge rectifier you’ll get AC. You may need to limit the current taken out – those transformers are generally a bit close to thermal limits if you take the rated current from them.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Simon, I’ve had to stop my experiment because my power supply will no longer supply current. It may be because my positive wire got so hot that the insulation melted and the wire also melted my styrofoam cooler that I had the cell in. I either burnt up some regulator in the power supplier or the wire has shorted out. The controls on the power supply don’t change anything. Do you think it’s the machine or the lead wires?

        Is there a heavier duty lead wire available?

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – Hot wires probably mean that the supply current-limit system has failed. Those leads should handle 5A without a problem, but it is possible that the (crimped) internal connections have failed. Test the leads for continuity with a meter – a bit of melted insulation at this voltage is not dangerous unless it shorts out, and with a current-limited supply it should not in any case put enough power out to cause a problem if there is a short.

        There will probably be a somewhat burnt PNP power transistor inside the power supply – probably a design fault but could be a bad component or bad soldering. Try replacing the obviously faulty bits and see if that fixes the power supply. Or send it back and get another one, since it will be under guarantee and should not have failed. It may be worth checking for blown fuses, too, if it has any in the output circuit.

        Better leads tend to be things we have to make, so buying heavier wire (speaker wire?) and 4mm banana plugs would be an option if needed, but generally at the intended level of use (around an amp) the boughten ones work OK.

  201. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Craig test! Craig test!

  202. Anony Mole Says:

    Well, seein’ how CF is not gonna hit the market for another decade or more, we’ll have to keep trying to find alternatives:

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I don’t think it’ll be a decade before CF hits the market but it may be 20 years before homeowners can generate electricity with a domestic CF reactor….CF water heaters maybe in 5 years.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      That hot oil injected steam-motor might be adaptable to a CF reactor.

    • brucefast Says:

      I am still very much of the mind that once this technology breaks through the glass ceiling, it’ll skyrocket. Development does take time, but there will be mobs of engineers that will be working on implementing every aspect of the technology.

      That said, I had never envisioned how hard it would be to get this technology out the door.

  203. Anony Mole Says:

    Electro plating of platinum – a way to build atom think layers. Might be a way to build nickel layers for LENR.

    [Bruce – can you start a Post2 for stuff like this. Downloading 700 messages each time to share here…]

  204. Anonymole Says:

    2012 – and no commercialized cold fusion. Hope I don’t have to write this as well at the end of 2013… [Post2 anyone?]

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I humbly predict some favorable mainstream media attention about successful CF products but not significant sales before ’14 or ’15, unless the early prototypes are so simple and effective that they don’t require the usual multi-year learning curve.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Anony – I expect there’ll be announcements this year, and we’ll get closer to a commercially-available LENR device, but I don’t expect we’ll be able to buy one this year. You may be able to make one yourself, though, as there will be enough data published to do that. Regulatory problems will delay commercial introduction.

      I have high hopes of Bob Rohner getting a Papp-based engine out this year, though again it’ll be a while before it will be in mass-production because of regulatory delays. I think the underlying process is related to LENR, which is why I’m happy posting that here. There are a few other technologies that may also give Nearly Free Energy coming along that will likely get more publicity this year, and some may even be available to us to buy.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        January 1st, 2013 at 9:53 AM
        Dear Mr Rossi,

        May you have a successful 2013 with the commencement of the civil plant deliveries.

        Two Questions:
        1. Do you think you will be able to publish your theory on this energy phenomenon in 2013?

        2. Have you plans to scale up production facilities in 2013 (to start on an exponential growth of production…)..?
        Andrea Rossi
        January 1st, 2013 at 10:08 AM
        Dear Lande:
        1- yes
        2- yes
        I wish you a wonderful 2013,

  205. BruceFast Says:

    I just read this article:

    This guy makes a compelling, and data filled case that AGW is not happening, and is being exaggerated badly by the “scientific” media.

    Ultimately, LENR benefits more from an AGW world than it does from a world that is not warming. However, if/when AGW is seen as smoke and mirrors, it will cause a diminishment of respect for the “scientific consensus”. Scientific consensus, of course, is one of the major roadblocks to acceptance of LENR.

    It may go the other way, however. It may be that LENR gets out the door diminishing respect for the “scientific consensus”, allowing the world to see that the AGW case isn’t as iron-clad as all that.

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Bruce – the guy makes sense, and I’ve also pointed to Chiefio’s blog in the past where he both analyses the original data and points to where it’s been fudged.

      So – we’ve passed the current peak of warming (driven mainly by the Sun’s activity and external influences) and are going to get a bit cooler over the next decade or so. In that case, having LENR to keep us warm is going to be a useful thing. Since electricity prices will “necessarily skyrocket” it will be somewhat good for each of us to have our own little low-cost generator, hopefully fuelled by a small quantity of Nickel now and again.

      Scientific consensus is a strange thing – a few people “on a mission” and some media coverage that sounds authoritative can make a lot of difference to the opinions of people who have not got access to the data or the means of checking it. Mostly consensus is correct, but when it’s wrong it’s very hard to shift.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      New study shows that soot has twice the effect on climate change as CO2 and soot is much cheaper to mitigate. Soot is also very unhealthy to breath in.

      • brucefast Says:

        I remember having a conversation with a meteorologist friend of mine on this topic (especially as it relates to wood heat and forest fires, the northern Canada specialties.) He would very much agree with you that soot is very unhealthy.

        I am set for a trip to Hawaii. Warm doesn’t seem that unhealthy to me.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Here today,
        gone to Maui.

    • Bob Says:

      It was recently announced that the sun is responsible for a big portion of climate change, way more than thought.
      There are also indications that gamma rays from the stars affect climate and that it is modulated by the strength of the magnetic field of the sun and earth.
      CO2 is a trace gas and accounts for 1% of the atmosphere, no way it is responsible for global warming.
      There are many cycles that play out and according to the charts we are entering a very cold spell that could be quite severe. I expect the whole issue of AGW to go away soon.

  206. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    What wuz that all about?

  207. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Iggy – probably computer-generated spam. 174k of it….

  208. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Shazammmm comment at vortex

    “RE: [Vo]:S.Korea Fusion
    Jack Harbach-O’Sullivan Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:47:58 -0800

    This is not ‘Fusion’ proper; This is Plasma Breach Reactor technology. (which
    ‘can’ support
    fusion but which would be so monumentally counter productive) and so much so
    that simply using the Plas-Breach
    Reactor in ‘INCIPIENT’-Plas-Breach(restrained-eye)XO-Plasma bleed-through mode
    a self sustaining EM-induction production level that makes nuclear
    power appear a clumsy & wasteful dinosaur. This is seriously both GREEN and
    CLEAN. . .
    And once ‘online’ eg. Giga-High-Denstiy jump-started it goes into
    self-sustaining mode
    and the up-keep expense is ‘nill.’

    I always knew that the inevitable MONSTER STAG-FLATION of the world economy
    finally be that which brought this Plas-Breach/XO-Plas tech into the opening.
    And this
    because only relative low cost full energy independence & coupled with relative
    low cost
    Super-Weapons systems would bring the GUNS & BUTTER equation back to
    relative Global Stabilization.

    Sister tech 2 this is
    Electro-Plasmic-Meteor Broadcast ‘incipient Plasma-Breach toroid’ missle
    interdiction systems.

    They are just announcing this now because it’s already been installed. The
    Meteors Broadcast units (which are mini-low-power Plas-Breach Reactors) needs
    be arrayed
    across an latitudinal grid line because the FLY-PATTERN follows the
    geo-magnetic grid
    NORTHward(only). The Magneto-Gravionic Wake creates a long-path devastating
    airborne hyper
    gravity ‘sump’ effect which is more like hypr-grav trenches in the sky. In UK
    I watched
    the prototype literally RIP 5 jet-fighters out of the sky across about a
    nautical mile. It tends
    to make a believer out of you. This was public but few commentators had a clue
    as to
    what exactly they were watching. . . ultimate stealth equals INVISIBLE but the
    effects are stunning.

    This technology being installed in South Korea will CUT OFF NORTH KOREAN missle
    OFF AT THE KNEES since it is instantaneous 1/2 C/light speed response. If the
    Meteor(Hyper-grav frisbees-toroid fields and wakes) is launched at a shallow
    enough horizon skimming
    trajectory it stands to RIP A TRENCH in any installation in its path for a
    least as far north as the
    northern most border of North Korea.

    Note the ‘timing’ and location: This is an American project ‘totally.’ Jack”

  209. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Laser cooling of a semiconductor by 40 kelvin NATURE
    Optical irradiation accompanied by spontaneous anti-Stokes emission can lead to cooling of matter, in a phenomenon known as laser cooling, or optical refrigeration, which was proposed by Pringsheim in 1929. In gaseous matter, an extremely low temperature can be obtained in diluted atomic gases by Doppler cooling, and laser cooling of ultradense gas has been demonstrated by collisional redistribution of radiation. In solid-state materials, laser cooling is achieved by the annihilation of phonons, which are quanta of lattice vibrations, during anti-Stokes luminescence. Since the first experimental demonstration in glasses doped with rare-earth metals, considerable progress has been made, particularly in ytterbium-doped glasses or crystals: recently a record was set of cooling to about 110 kelvin from the ambient temperature, surpassing the thermoelectric Peltier cooler.

  210. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Bruce, I can no longer find the latest posts which used to be listed on the right side of your home page.

  211. Stefano Says:

    New Italian parliamentary question on third party report:

  212. iggydalrymple Says:

    Roger, how are you faring with respect to the forest fire? The picture of devastation at Royal Gorge was unbelievable.

  213. iggydalrymple Says:

    New book by B. Fast: “How To Build A Spam Magnet”.

  214. phytotherapie rennes Says:

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  216. iggydalrymple Says:

    Ridley Scott, executive producer of “Klondike” on Discovery Channel. Bases the story of Dawson City on Jack London’s writings of the gold rush days of White Horse, Yukon Territory, Canada,

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