INADVERTENT MISWIRING OF LEADS IS THE CAUSE!

Ecatnews.com released an article entitled “Australian Skeptics’ eCat Verdict: It’s All A Terrible Error

The skeptic’s opinion angered me to to the point where I wanted my own post rather than merely commenting on the ecatnews thread.

(I will not elaborate on the complete statement of the Astralian skeptic Ian Bryce as my friends at ecatnews.com have already done so.  Please read their excellent article (link above) to get the full story.)

The skeptic’s claim is similar to that presented by Peter Theiberger as sited on this site.  The general idea is that Rossi took electricity out of the power wire, and sent much of it back down the ground, rather then sending it down the common wire.   All he had to do was make sure that the current was measured from the common wire, and poof, a bunch of the electricity didn’t show up on the meter.

As I challenged Peter Theiberger, I challenge Bryce to consider the 18 hour test.  The first thing that Dr. Levi did in this test was to rewire the heat measurement system.  He ran water through fast enough that it did not boil, therefore eliminating the question of wet steam, dry steam and all of that.  The second thing that is important is that the system at that time was outputting a sustained 20kw of heat!  Thirdly, there was a period of time where the output was a measured at 130kw!

So, in light of these numbers — 20kw, and 130kw — how viable is the “ground wire theory”?  Lets do the calculations — again.  Europe is wired with 240 volt wall outlets.  At 240 volts, 20kw requires a draw of 83 amps.  This, of course, creates the first crisis of believability — 83 AMPS!  At this point the wiring in the building would have to be redone!  When the system was outputting 130kw, it would need to draw a mere 540 AMPS!  It is likely, at that level, that the mains providing power to the building would have had to have been rewired!  Ahhh, he must have pulled some other game to do the 130kw stunt, so lets disconsider it for the moment.  Consider the chart at: http://www.cablesandconnectors.com/wiregauge.html  It says that for normal, safe, wiring, 83 amps requires 1 gauge wire!  If wire is held in the chassis of equipment, the safety levels go down a bit because a fire wouldn’t be as big of a deal and because you are running short distances.  So for in-chassis wiring 6 gauge is considered safe.  Rossi may have pushed his luck and gone with 8 gauge wiring — rated for 73 amps in chassis.  Now, 8 gauge wire is .12″ diameter, that’s over 1/8″ thick BEFORE the coating!   With coating, this stuff is at least 1/4″ thick!  You can see the wires that are being measured for power in some of the pictures, it’s not CABLE!

In this light, lets examine the veracity of Ian Brice’s statement.  First a little English.  He said, “Inadvertent miswiring of the leads IS the problem”.  That word “is” is declarative.  Ian Brice’s statement would not be assuredly false if it weren’t so emphatic.  Now, there are three possibilities relative to Brice’s statement.

1, Rossi’s device worked as claimed in the demos.  In this case, Ian Brice’s statement is clearly false.

2, Rossi miswired his device, but did it intentionally.  In this case, Ian Brice’s statement is false!

3, Rossi inadvertently miswired his device.  This is the case where Ian Brice’s statement would be true.  Would Ian Brice dare to argue that Rossi inadvertently re-fused the power line to withstand an 83 continuous load?  Would Ian Brice dare to argue that Rossi inadvertently rewired the building with at least 8 gauge wire?  Would Ian Brice dare to argue that Rossi inadvertently used 8 gauge wire to plug his device in?  Would Ian Brice dare to argue that Dr. Levi didn’t notice that the power cord contained 3 1/4 inch diameter cables!

I therefore simply contend that if Ian Brice was not misquoted when he said, “INADVERTENT MISWIRING OF LEADS IS THE CAUSE” that Ian Brice has been established as a liar!

As Roger Bird pointed out in his comment on ecatnews.com, Ian Bryce has opened himself up to a libel suit.

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86 Responses to “INADVERTENT MISWIRING OF LEADS IS THE CAUSE!”

  1. AB Says:

    Thanks for clarifying the wire size question. It did strike me as odd that somebody would propose such an obvious method of faking excess power. Let’s be honest, faking is what he means because one doesn’t inadvertently mix up wires many times in a row.

  2. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Of course, that’s why Rossi looked worried when it went to 130KW. He thought the fuse was going to blow (he’d have needed about a 15mm diameter solid copper fuse). Maybe he also used solid silver wire to keep the size down, too, since 4mm copper cores are fairly easy to spot when there are 3 together. And the connectors used?

    There are skeptics who accept valid evidence and then there are the people who find fault for no good reason. Maybe it’s a medical problem. It seems that Mr. Ian Bryce is of the latter kind.

  3. GreenWin Says:

    I shall repost my comment from ecatnews so there will be no mistake. The team of Bryce and Smith are silly interlopers, desperate for attention which indicates more than medical, possibly – a mental issue.

    Ian “Popemobile” Bryce, and Dick “Dickhead” Smith, the two rubber nosed minstrels of the Aussi Skeptic Meetup are fodder for much mirth.

    You can read how Ian bravely fought off police so he could drive his homemade Popemobile in kids parades.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/court-damns-fake-pope/2008/12/01/1227979938770.html

    After that, tune in to Dick “Dickhead” Smith, inventor of wildly amusing “Dickhead Matches,” featuring a screaming woman on the box. That invention puts Rossi to shame.

    “Whilst Dick is happy to concede that he did copy the concept of the packaging from Redheads, he goes on to say that careful measures were taken to make Dickheads packaging significantly different from Redheads packaging,” said Phil Morrel, Dickhead Controller.

    Thank goodness! Suppose that makes Smith, the inventor, something of a copycat mimic parrot kinda guy. Not that it’s bad… Or a blustering CCP officer.

    • brucefast Says:

      These are the same guys who said that they’d give hundreds of thousands to charity if Rossi could prove to their skeptic that his technology was for real, yes? You do an excellent job of showing why Rossi rejected the generous offer. Most likely Rossi did a bit of googling — either that or he has a good spideysense.

  4. Shaun Taylor Says:

    What 18 hour test?

    Oh you mean the one that Levi lost all the test data and all we have is his verbal report of what happened? Levi did say the entire 18 hour test was video recorded so they could see what was happening at night. Was that video also lost? Why was it never released?

    Here are the facts.

    There are no independent Ecat test data available. None. Rossi refuses to allow independent testing to be done yet claims to have a device which will save the world.

    You believe what you wish.

    For me there is no independent test data. Therefore none of what Rossi claims should be taken as fact.

    As for Bryce, if Rossi tried to sue him, Rossi would need to prove to the court that the Ecat did work as he claimed. To do that Rossi would need to do independent court approved testing, which so far he has refused to do.

    Shaun

    • brucefast Says:

      “Here are the facts.” Yup, all of ‘em, every one.

      Here are some more facts:

      Dr. Brian Ahern, Ames National Laboratory
      Dr. Joseph Zawodny, NASA
      Quintin Bowles, University of Missouri–Kansas City.
      George Miley, University of Illinois
      Piantelli, University of Siena
      Mike McKubre, SRI
      Francesco Celani, National Institute of Nuclear Physics
      M. Swartz, MIT

      http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-
      december-30-2011/

  5. Ian Bryce Says:

    I am disappointed that a person who does not even give a name slings such mud at me.

    For the record, I hold a BSc (physics) and a BE (Hons). My career has been mostly in aerospace engineering, in which field I lectured at UNSW for 7 years. Now I do specialist engineering consulting.

    All the points raised are already covered in http://www.skeptics.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Rossi-ECAT-press-release-Technical.pdf

    In particular, my earth wire hypothesis applies to the 7 tests, up to July 2011, of three models: 10 KW, 3 KW and truncated 3 KW.

    The 18 hour test you refer to is nothing more than anecdote. You cannot even give a date or a spreadsheet of measurements.

    All tests after July were of an entirely different device (27 KW) in an entirely different setup. The results of the 7 September test have been analyzed by many, and it was found that the thermocouples were badly placed so that they responded to the primary water circuit as well as the secondary, so that the output power was overestimated. It may well have been 3 KW, which is available from the power point.

    The full list of tests is linked from the above press release. Thus, as I understand it, there remain NO ECAT tests showing real power gain.

    If you have any evidence against this hypothesis, then please stop the insults and tell me, and I will revise my theory in accordance with the scientific method.

    Sincerely

    Ian Bryce

    • brucefast Says:

      Mr. Bryce,

      It is clear that you are disrespectful of others: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/court-damns-fake-pope/2008/12/01/1227979938770.html

      Dr. Levi was interviewed for about an hour by the infamous Steve Krivit about the 18 hour test. This would clearly stand out in any courtroom as proof that the 18 hour test happened, and the results were approximately as NyTeknik has described them. However, you, in your high and mighty way, have disrespected Dr. Levi by being so dismissive. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml-NElJ-Cf0)

      You hold Rossi to a high standard presumably because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. However, the most extraordinary of Rossi’s claims, that Nickel + Hydrogen produce excess heat has been confirmed by the following scientists:
      Dr. Brian Ahern, Ames National Laboratory
      Dr. Joseph Zawodny, NASA
      Quintin Bowles, University of Missouri–Kansas City.
      George Miley, University of Illinois
      Piantelli, University of Siena
      Mike McKubre, SRI
      Francesco Celani, National Institute of Nuclear Physics
      M. Swartz, MIT
      (http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-
      december-30-2011/)
      In holding Rossi to extraordinary evidence, rather than acknowledging the legitimacy at least of the phenomenon, you hold these scientists in disrespect.

      You lied when you said that, “Inadvertent miswiring of leads is the cause”. You did say/write that didn’t you? This statement is false on its face! There is no realistic way that it is true.

      You have established yourself as disrespectful. You have established yourself as a liar. You tote a bachelor’s degree (with honors) as your qualification against a throng of people toting Ph.D’s. Why should we respect you or your opinion.

      BTW, I am using my real name.

      • Ian Bryce Says:

        Hello Bruce Fast,
        Now I know who the chief mudslinger is. (You say that is your real name).
        You said
        “You lied when you said that, “Inadvertent miswiring of leads is the cause”. You did say/write that didn’t you?”
        No I did not say or write that. I report only physical phenomena, not motives.
        If you have any EVIDENCE about Rossi’s tests that bears on my hypothesis, then please present that instead of insults!
        Am I to take it that you are a Catholic whose sensibilities have been pricked by my other protests?
        Ian Bryce (my one and only name)

      • brucefast Says:

        I did not say or write that.
        ecatnews says that you made the statement I quoted. (http://ecatnews.com/?p=1972) Please correct them. Please also forward to me exactly and completely what you did say and I will correct the post.

        “Am I to take it that you are a Catholic whose sensibilities have been pricked by my other protests?”
        I am not Catholic, I am human. Your public mocking of the sincerely held beliefs of others is what offends me, even if those beliefs are not my own. Your parading of an effigy was just plain mean.

        “If you have any EVIDENCE about Rossi’s tests that bears on my hypothesis, then please present that instead of insults!”

        I have presented my evidence.

        I used simple engineering to point out how your hypothesis falls flat in light of the 18 hour test.

        I countered your claim that the 18 hour test is nothing more than “anecdote” by pointing you to the hour long video of Dr. Levi attesting to the veracity of the test.

        Lastly, MOST IMPORTANTLY
        I provided an extensive list of top scientists who have also reported excess heat from a Nickel + Hydrogen reaction. This, sir is evidence that I already had presented to you. Answer it!

      • brucefast Says:

        Mr. Bryce,
        In the interest of journalistic integrity (though I am no more a journalist than I am a Catholic) I double-checked the ecatnews report. At the end of their report they replicate two documents. The first says:
        HOW ROSSI COLD FUSION TESTS MISLED THE WORLD’S SCIENTISTS

        INADVERTENT MISWIRING OF LEADS IS THE CAUSE

        All around the world, thousands of people have been heralding…

        The author is not stated, but the salutation reads:
        For further information contact Australian Skeptics:
        Tim Mendham, executive officer – +61 (0)2 8094 1894; +61 (0)432 713 195
        Ian Bryce, chief investigator – +61 (0)408 177 007

        Even if you did not compose this document it clearly states your endorsement of it — as if you had written it.

        My simple question to you is this, Did you have, or could you have had, access to this document prior to it going public?

        As this document clearly makes the claims that I make at the head of this post, please either accept the slung mud, or formally publish a clarification declaring that you were not privy to to this document prior to it being published, and that you were not in a position to correct its assertions.

      • brucefast Says:

        Aw sheut, now I’ve gone and copied the .pdf off of the Australian Skeptic Society’s website so you can’t even change it. (Link provided by Simon Derricutt below.) It uses the statement “INADVERTENT MISWIRING OF LEADS IS THE CAUSE” as a complete declarative (subtitle to “press release”). It also states that you are the author. Please feel free to charge somebody with impersonating you.

        When you publicly mocked the good Catholics of Australia you opened the door wide to mud slinging. http://tinyurl.com/6rqmul8
        or should I say
        http://tinyurl.com/7wrjo7o

      • Jonathan Says:

        I think this is just scientists being scientists rather than a deliberate attempt to be disrespectful.

        Rossi makes the claim that there is more heat coming out of his e-cat than electricity going in, and that this is due to a low energy nuclear reaction between hydrogen and nickel.

        Scientists following the scientific method will look for other possible explanations for the observed phenomenon, and devise experiments to eliminate these possibilities one by one. Electricity flowing down the earth wire certainly is one possible explanation, so any future tests on the device or other similar devices from elsewhere should test for that, by for example measuring the current on the earth line, or disconnecting it altogether.

        Having said that, you certainly can’t state, as he apparently has, that miswiring is the cause, because that is a claim which requires evidence, and as far as I can see, there is none.

  6. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Mr. Bryce – In your Feb 1st, 3:59am post you quoted the report at http://www.skeptics.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Rossi-ECAT-press-release-Technical.pdf as being your report. Please read it before denying what you said, as you did in your 1:59pm post. It is the title of the report, after all.

    The power graphs you quote in your report are not smooth curves – it looks like only points were looked at, and subsequently plotted by joining the dots. The cause of the gap could simply be accidental disconnection of a sensor, so read as zero, written as zero and then the cause was found and the sensor reconnected. Maybe this is an honest error and the data is unedited. Personally I would question the data, and find out whether the reason is simply equipment failure rather than intentional hoax.

    Despite Peter Ekstrom’s (translated as Peter Oak Power in the text pointed at by your report) denials, P+F did have a working experiment and it was duplicated by over a hundred groups by the end of 1990, and at least another 100 since (using Pd, Ni, H and D) with varying success as regards production of heat, Helium, Tritium and other nuclear ash. There is little doubt that LENR (under whatever name you choose) is a real phenomenon despite disagreements over the theory of it. The bottom line, therefore, is not whether Rossi’s machines can work but how well they work.

    The sum of the evidence I’ve seen is that it can work well at times. His scientific knowledge and ability are maybe not good, and he may exaggerate what he has, but it looks like he has finally got the help of people who can fix that.

    If Rossi is a fraud, then he’s mortgaged his house for nothing, since he’ll be bankrupted by the people he’s dealing with now if he’s trying to fool them.

    It is a reasonable bet that Levi has nothing to gain (and a lot to lose) by helping Rossi. It is unreasonable to think that otherwise good scientists would be fooled by a wiring “error”, so either they were completely and continuously fooled or Rossi’s system does actually work. Do the maths, as Bruce has. Your contention does not stack up for the “18-hour test”, so maybe it was also not applicable to the others.

    Be reasonable….

  7. ZviBenYosef Says:

    It looks like Mr Bryce has nothing more to say in defense of his ridiculous assertion about a mistake in the wiring. Congratulations in debunking the debunker

  8. Miff Says:

    Surely if Mr Rossie does not repeat his March 2011 test as Mr Bryce has challenged it will cast doubt over all the Rossie claims

    • brucefast Says:

      Miff, you are obviously new here. Please read before engaging your typing fingers.

      > Mr. Bryce is not the first or 50th person to challenge the veracity of Rossi’s claims.

      > Rossi has no need to have his claims validated until he actually gets a product ready to ship. See: http://nickelpower.org/2012/01/03/why-should-rossi-prove-it/

      > Whether Rossi proves it or not, the proof is in. See: http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-december-30-2011/

      • Miff Says:

        A Mr Green in Australia is about to invest $150,000 in the Rossie device at the request of Mr Rossie and his Australian agent.
        I understand many other people are about to invest.
        Do you think these people should wait for more evidence that it is not a dishonest scam like the one that lost Australian investors over $50 million through Firepower?

        Or do you think they should accept the requests from Mr Rossies Australian friend and agent.?

        You have clearly more experience in this field.

        Have you been asked to invest and if not why do you think Mr Rossie is raising money now in Australia?

      • brucefast Says:

        My understanding is that the Aussies offered to give money to charity, not to Rossi.

        Rossi seems rather adamant that he doesn’t want money from anyone, except as receipt for product. He has never given me an opportunity to give him my money, let alone asked me for money.

        I have signed up as one of Rossi’s 50,000 requesting to purchase a 10kw unit, yet he still has not asked a penny from me.

        Weird scammer, that’s all I have to say.

      • Bob Norman Says:

        Miff, anyone investing in a start-up typically has to meat certain requirements of being able to take the risk financially and is an informed investor that that understands and accepts such risks. Put money in has a burden of qualification that not everyone can meet. High risk and high reward is done by people that can afford it.

  9. Miff Says:

    And the money is clearly not going to charity.
    Solihin Millin who is the Australian friend of Rossie has made it very clear that 50% of all money raised goes to Mr Rossie.

    You seem to want to put a positive lean on everything about Rossie. Many people did that about Firepower. I suggest you look that up on Google.

    It’s amazing to me how many people are now claiming this is a dishonest scam – why else would there not be I simple demo like the one in March with all power leads being checked!

    And the number of units ordered is clearly fiction- just as the claim that the giant chain Circuit City is in negotiations to order huge quantities. All a con!

    • Simon Derricutt Says:

      Is that the same Sol Milin who’s involved with Joe’s Cell (look it up on PESN and have a laugh!)? I strongly suspect that Rossi has no such friendship.

      The “positive lean” is, I think, a reasonable view given the evidence so far. National Instruments have not denied being now involved – and they’ve had enough time now to respond if they wanted to. If they had not been convinced it was real they would publish denials very quickly to avoid public ridicule.

      Be aware that physics theory is constantly evolving as we understand more and can measure more accurately. If something happens, then you cannot deny it happens simply by quoting theory – you have to check all the measurements and errors to do that. Check out the work of Vysotskii at http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html for something truly amazing – moulds may be transmuting elements to get the metals they need if they are in short supply. Impossible?

    • brucefast Says:

      If you check all of my writing, you will find that I call Rossi a liar:
      http://nickelpower.org/page-2/#comment-4186
      And that Rossi is beside the point http://nickelpower.org/2012/01/03/why-should-rossi-prove-it/#comment-4477
      I hardly hold Rossi up as an infallible, or highly moral human being.

      However, Miff, if you look at my writing, my general case is this:
      LENR, specifically Ni + H LENR is established independent of Rossi. (http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-december-30-2011/) Rossi, therefore, is not claiming some new marvel of science. He is only claiming that he has tamed it.

      Please, Miff, don’t waste my time and yours. Start by reading the post at http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-december-30-2011/. Let your next comment address the list of scientists who also claim excess heat from a Nickel + Hydrogen reaction.

  10. Miff Says:

    I must correct an error.

    It was Home Depot that Mr Rossie claims to be negotiating with, not Circuit City

  11. Keef Wivanef Says:

    GOOD GRIEF!

  12. maryyugo Says:

    “If Rossi is a fraud, then he’s mortgaged his house for nothing, since he’ll be bankrupted by the people he’s dealing with now if he’s trying to fool them.”

    How do you know Rossi mortgaged his house? Actually, he said he sold it. So what? People buy and sell homes all the time. Maybe he sold his house so he could have more cash which he will need if this whole scheme falls apart because the E-cat is phony.

    “It is a reasonable bet that Levi has nothing to gain (and a lot to lose) by helping Rossi. It is unreasonable to think that otherwise good scientists would be fooled by a wiring “error”, so either they were completely and continuously fooled or Rossi’s system does actually work. Do the maths, as Bruce has. Your contention does not stack up for the “18-hour test”, so maybe it was also not applicable to the others. ”

    I have no idea what Levi’s motive or level of competence is but what he has done and NOT done is not encouraging. What he SHOULD have done is to repeat the test of February 18. That was, in theory, an excellent test which used only a liquid coolant and no evaporation of steam. That would be an accurate way to measure heat production of the E-cat but ONLY IF the following were done which Levi did not do:

    1) A blank/calibration run in which he would run an E-cat with no hydrogen and thus no nuclear reaction. The electrical heater would be powered up and the measurement system would be tested to see if it could accurately detect and measured the electrical heat without error.

    2) Complete, written and photo documentation of the run including automated data collection of T-in, T-out, and flow rate of coolant.

    An 18 hour run at 10 kW would be very impressive.

    Levi has never repeated his experiment. He’s been asked to do so personally and via Rossi many times over almost a year. Why does he not do it? I am almost sure it’s because he knows it won’t work and the E-cat is phony. Why else not do it? It’s such an easy, cheap and helpful thing to do.

    • brucefast Says:

      maryyugo, you’re back!

      I am a bit puzzled at your logic, not the bit about “Do the maths, as Bruce has” but about the following:

      1 – I am puzzled at your hyper-focus on Rossi. If Rossi was the only person in the world that was claiming the Ni + H reaction, the focus would make sense, but I have now documented 16 sources, some of which are respected scientists from notorious institutions who all claim to get excess heat from a Nickel + Hydrogen reaction.
      Please peruse the list, for every entry there is a link to their claim.
      http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-december-30-2011/
      If you wonder what difference it makes, please read my most recent post: http://nickelpower.org/2012/02/02/extraordinary-claims/ I think I explain myself quite clearly.

      2 – I am a bit baffled at your confidence in your own hypotheses. You said, “Why does he not do it? I am almost sure it’s because he knows it won’t work and the E-cat is phony.” Is that really the most logical conclusion? Lets consider some logical variation:

      Premise 1: There was an event in the demo when 130kw of heat was produced.
      Premise 2: All subsequent e-cat units put out significantly less power, Rossi said it was “more stable”.
      Logical conclusion: Rossi was disconcerted by the 130kw output, and decided never to run the large core again. Therefore, Dr. Levi could not reproduce his test.

      Premise 1: In his extensive interview with Mr. Krivit, Dr. Levi made it very clear that the 18 hour test was designed to give him the needed information so that a serious study of the e-cat could be performed.
      Premise 2: Multiple statements from the U. of Bologna indicate that the U. had developed a formal testing plan, and that the plan would be expensive. Recently they announced that the funding for the plan had fallen through, so they were looking at a lesser plan.
      Logical conclusion: Dr. Levi planned a very exhaustive test of the e-cat. Ultimately he and the U. bit off more then they could afford to chew. However, as the U. (not Rossi) has made it clear that this plan had been in place until very recently, it seems reasonable that Dr. Levi actively sought a much more rigorous retest. This seems painfully in contradiction to your “Why does he not do it? I am almost sure it’s because he knows it won’t work and the E-cat is phony.” assertion.

      • maryyugo Says:

        Bruce, your theories are nutsy. If the E-cat had output 130kW in a volume the size of a baseball (or even a basketball), it would have become white hot and the resulting rapid evolution of steam would have caused an explosion. It was almost certainly a measurement error caused by bad thermocouple placement. The probably allowed the T-out thermocouple to touch the internal heater. Errors like that are the reason calibration is necessary each time such an experiment is run.

        What is it about the need for blanks and calibration in a scientific experiment that you (and apparently Levi) don’t understand? Levi’s experiment was badly done and worthless. That’s why Levi won’t give actual data, videos or details.

        There is no need whatsoever for any “exhaustive test” of the E-cat. What’s needed a simple test like the one Levi designed. It needs to be done at a good power level (10kW) would be nice (but less would do), using the old E-cat and then it needs to run a couple of days with proper calibration of the energy measurement system.

        That would prove in less than a week of work that the E-cat really works and we could stop arguing about it. Better yet, have it done by Celani or Josephson or MIT or NASA or Quantum or Earthtech or just about anyone who can other than Rossi.

        What you don’t get is that neither Rossi nor Defkalion in over a year of wrangling about this stuff, has allowed a single properly done and non-arguable test. They have also never had an independent test. October 28 was a silly charade. Nobody invited to the test ever saw how the data were collected and the large generator connected to the “plant” ran the entire time! What sort of test is that?

        The whole story could easily be fraud. Either Rossi or Defkalion could put a stop to those speculations easily, quickly, cheaply and safely and they don’t. The best guess as to why is that their stuff doesn’t work.

      • brucefast Says:

        maryyugo, “Bruce, your theories are nutsy.”

        This is not my theory, its Dr. Levi’s. He stated:
        “Initially, the temperature of the inflowing water was seven degrees Celsius and for a while the outlet temperature was 40 degrees Celsius. A flow rate of about one liter per second, equates to a peak power of 130 kilowatts.”
        http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3108242.ece

        This statement includes a simple statement of fact: data and calculation. Do the calculations, as you congratulated me earlier for doing. Show Dr. Levi where he is wrong, or discover that water is REALLY GOOD at removing heat from a system.

        maryyugo, You still have not responded to my challenges to you above:

        1 – I am puzzled at your hyper-focus on Rossi.
        2 – I am a bit baffled at your confidence in your own hypotheses.

        maryyugo,
        “The whole story could easily be fraud. Either Rossi or Defkalion could put a stop to those speculations easily, quickly, cheaply and safely and they don’t. The best guess as to why is that their stuff doesn’t work.”

        Yup, the whole story could easily be fraud. All 16 independent sources claiming excess heat from Nickel and Hydrogen could be fraud. Both Rossi and Defkalion could be frauds — despite that Rossi will go down in history for pulling off the bravest fraud ever with his demonstrations to qualified scientists.

        However, please note that the third entrant in the “sufficent gain” fraternity, Dr. Mitchell Swartz, Jet Energy, Inc., is behaving in the same secretive way. Could it be that Rossi and Defkalion gain an advantage by not providing that “absolute proof”? Could it be that they don’t want to wake the giant of gazillions of well funded competitors before they get their product ready for market?

        1 – LENR is established independent of Rossi.
        2 – Ni + H LENR is established independent of Rossi.
        3 – There are now three sources, one that is truly independent of Rossi (I recognize a wierd link between Rossi and Defkalion) who are claiming useful COP.

        That, pitted against an anonymous poster saying that “logic” concludes that fraud is “the most logical conclusion” leaves maryyugo looking pretty cocky and silly.

  13. Bob Norman Says:

    MarryYugo, are you the same person that was kicked off the Vortex and was found out to be a man living in San Diago? Just curious if we are talking to the same “Yugo”?

    • maryyugo Says:

      The person who runs Vortex kicked me off because they only want true believers on the forum — he said so. My name was linked via an email to someone in San Diego. There are many ways that could happen other than us being the same person.

      But if we are the same person (I never discuss identity on the internet) you’d better look at who that person is. According to the same Vortex message string, he’s the vice president of a company that makes products used in the measurement of heat and in calorimetry. He’s also a published scientist in several fields. If I were that person, it would lend credibility to my intense distrust of Rossi and Defkalion — it would not detract from it.

      • brucefast Says:

        maryyugo, I have not kicked anyone off this site yet. I seriously threatened to with Craig Binns, so I am certainly willing to. While this site is most certainly positivistic, I am happy with thoughtful dialog from those who aren’t so convinced.

        However, I posted a well though rebuttal to an earlier comment of yours above. You have yet to respond to it. If all you have in you is negative yap, I have the energy to figure out how to kick somebody off of this wordpress site.

      • George Hideout Says:

        Nice, now we all know you have a serious personality disorder. Does this needs further demonstration ?

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobie33/message/3791

        Don’t worry, you don’t need to discuss identity on the internet, the internet knows who you are.

        There are many ways that could happen other than trying to deny it.

  14. AlpCns Says:

    As part of a seven day course run by Prof. Hagelstein and Dr. Swartz there was yet another successful cold fusion/LENR Demo at MIT – the so-called JET Energy NANOR reactor demonstrated a (rather significant) energy gain greater than 10x. Or perhaps this was a “measurement error” as well? Even Hagelstein and Swartz don’t know how to place thermocouples, perhaps?

    Amazing, isn’t it, that the skeptics never, ever, address indisputable facts like this. Perhaps they indeed have nothing else than negative yap. Not very scientific.

    • maryyugo Says:

      There is nothing about it which is “indisputable”. Far as I know, it’s just a report on someone’s blog containing nothing about materials and methods, how the experiment was conducted and what the detailed results and data were. Without those, who knows what happened there? Experiments in cold fusion/LENR are difficult and mistakes are easy to make.

      When it becomes a paper in a mainline journal article or if it is replicated by someone well known and credible and endorsed by a major university, then it will be something to consider. Until then, who knows?

      By the way, the method by which you prove you can place thermocouples has nothing to do with who you are or what your credentials are. It’s called blanking and calibration. Look it up.

      • brucefast Says:

        “Experiments in cold fusion/LENR are difficult” I noticed that you said “difficult”, this implies possible. Are you saying that you are persuaded that the phenomenon called LENR or cold fusion is probably valid?

      • maryyugo Says:

        You guys are hilarious but probably not worth the effort of a reply. The report about Swartz is a blog entry. The class at MIT is not an official MIT course, is non credit and is not endorsed or officially related to anything to do with MIT — they provide the room, that’s all.

        Am I persuaded cold fusion is real? No. I am not and I get less so the more ignorant drivel about it I read from believers.

        I used to think there was probably such a phenomenon as cold fusion or LENR but that it was subtle and difficult to demonstrate. Now, I am not sure such a thing exists at all. I’ve seen such bad thinking from advocates for it that I have nothing left but doubts.

        Wake me up when Rossi or Defkalion get independent tests. I don’t care about arguing about claims made in blogs or in unofficial summer sessions at MIT. Arguing about such things is a waste of time. Show me proven kilowatts of power for a very long time period in a proper experiment independent of Rossi or Defkalion. Otherwise, I am not interested.

      • AlpCns Says:

        You’d be surprised what I don’t have to look up. And no, it’s not just a blog post. The reactor has been running for 5 days straight, producing up to 14 times overunity – at MIT. Look it up, I’d say. And since this was at MIT I’d day it’s mainstream enough. Unless, of course, one considers Hagelstein and Swartz dilettantes as well. Not to mention the dozens of others who have confirmed it.

        I also note, with interest, that you have not answered the rebuttal of mr. Fast regarding this.

        Or maybe NASA, MIT, the US Navy, and dozens of other research labs across the world, who have demonstrated in published peer reviewed journal articles the reality of what many keep calling “fiction” or “scam” have all simultaneously gone stark mad. To pretend that something significant is not going on is merely a way to fool only ones self.

      • brucefast Says:

        “The reactor has been running for 5 days straight, producing up to 14 times overunity” You have more news than I do. Could you please provide links.

      • Bob Says:

        Marry

        Moving from theory to commercial product success usually means pushing the academics out of the way and just building things that they argue about.

        Rossi will have product in the market, while the academics will still be peer revuing each others papers and scheduling the next conference. The college community is notorious for not keeping secrets. They must talk, they must publicize otherwise they don’t get grants. Just look at Sienna letting out the catalyst formula to others. They admit they snooped, that’s what Universities do. Rossi is on the roight coarse, just build and sell it.

      • brucefast Says:

        maryyugo, “Am I persuaded cold fusion is real? No. I am not and I get less so … Wake me up when Rossi or Defkalion get independent tests”

        Why the heck does the validity of LENR rest on Rossi and Defkalion’s shoulders? What about these guys?

        Dr. Brian Ahern, Ames National Laboratory
        Dr. Joseph Zawodny, NASA
        Quintin Bowles, University of Missouri–Kansas City.
        George Miley, University of Illinois
        Piantelli, University of Siena
        Mike McKubre, SRI
        Francesco Celani, National Institute of Nuclear Physics
        M. Swartz, MIT

        Links to reports of their success is here: http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-
        december-30-2011/

        On a different post you said, “When it becomes a paper in a mainline journal article or if it is replicated by someone well known and credible and endorsed by a major university, then it will be something to consider. Until then, who knows?”

        Nasa says that there are over 100 published journal articles. SPAWAR says that everything in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1TXv0Ob8Bs, is taken from formally published material. They also say that their methods have been replicated multiple times.

        Lastly (on this topic), what are these:
        University of Missouri–Kansas City.
        University of Illinois
        University of Siena

        maryyugo, “I am not and I get less so the more ignorant drivel about it I read from believers.”

        This is the kind of shit that gets people kicked off of this site. I present logic and data — most usually with links to the source. If this is your definition of drivel, please consider driveling elsewhere.

  15. maryyugo Says:

    “Rossi is on the roight coarse, just build and sell it.”

    And what exactly has Rossi sold so far and to whom please?

  16. AlpCns Says:

    Mr. Fast: http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/successful-cold-fusionlanr-demonstration-at-mit-again/

    Look for the “update” in the top column. Also interesting, especially for MaryYugo maybe, is the fact that the text explicitly states that the demo was for MIT students and scientists, as part of the IAP Course.

    • brucefast Says:

      AlpCns, thanks for the link. I recognize the frustration of some that the report comes from a biased party as coldfusionnow is JET Energy.

      Also, maryyugo is basically right about MIT. The IAP courses are “Independent Activities Period” courses — courses that are not for credit, and that frequently involve extensive non-MIT lecturers.

      • AlpCns Says:

        My pleasure. BTW, that’s true, it’s IAP and therefore not for credit, nor is it a explicit endorsement by MIT. Nevertheless, its good to see that Swartz (of MIT) is demonstrating this. Reportedly, Peter Hagelstein has said in a email that Dr. Swartz (of MIT) has reported on Tuesday that the energy gain level achieved last Monday was actually 14 (conservatively reported in Cold Fusion Times as “greater than 10″).

        We live in interesting times.

  17. brucefast Says:

    I believe that I have figured out maryyugo’s problem. (S)he only considers data of the highest standard:
    “When it becomes a paper in a mainline journal article or if it is replicated by someone well known and credible and endorsed by a major university, then it will be something to consider. Until then, who knows?”

    The problem with her/his opinion is that it is properly ignored unless it meets the same standard. Therefore maryyugo has not yet said anything of any consequence whatsoever.

  18. maryyugo Says:

    “Why the heck does the validity of LENR rest on Rossi and Defkalion’s shoulders? What about these guys?”

    Let me make this crystal clear here as I have elsewhere. I am neither competent to nor interested in evaluating subtle claims for cold fusion. My ONLY interest in this field is because both Rossi and Defkalion have made huge, extravagant claims while both are behaving like investment scams do. THAT is my interest. I want to know why these two don’t get proper testing. I want to know why they act like Steorn.

    See, the thing is that these two claims are extremely easy to test. Hagelstein’s and Swartz and many others are not. If Rossi and Defkalion prove to be real, I don’t care about the other claims. If they prove to be scams, I will let other people evaluate the other claims.

    Let me be very specific: I am ONLY interested in claims involving 1 watt or more excess power with a COP of 10 or better sustained for days and measured properly with proper calorimetry confirmed with calibrated instrumentation of the appropriate design.

    I have never seen such an experiment. If you know of one, please provide the link. If the link does not include enough detail to determine whether the work was properly done and exactly how it was done and how the results were analyzed, please don’t bother. I am not interested in claims on blogs. I am only interested in robust and credible experimental tests and results.

    • brucefast Says:

      “I am neither competent to nor interested in evaluating subtle claims for cold fusion.”
      IE, no “paper in a mainline journal article” ever crosses your eyes. So you don’t know shit!

      “I am ONLY interested in claims involving 1 watt or more excess power with a COP of 10 or better”
      Where is that standard published?
      What university supports that standard?
      You are full of shit, maryyugo.

      • maryyugo Says:

        “You are full of shit, maryyugo.” Brilliant science there!

        It’s my criterion. I worked it out after following one after another bad experiment done by Rossi, Kullander, Essen and Lewan ending in that silly charade supposed to be a megawatt plant but connected to a huge diesel generator the entire time it ran.

      • brucefast Says:

        “It’s my criterion.”

        Earlier you stated your criterion as:

        “When it becomes a paper in a mainline journal article or if it is replicated by someone well known and credible and endorsed by a major university, then it will be something to consider. Until then, who knows?”

        Then you said

        “I am neither competent to nor interested in evaluating subtle claims for cold fusion.”

        You have no criterion but your own “belief”. You are absolutely and completely illogical. You are completely incompetent to participate in a logical discussion.

        You bore me. Rather than learn how to knock you out of this site, I will simply delete every message you post, and any comments posted by others that follow it. You’ve been banned.

        BTW, if you actually say something intelligent, I may consider to let your comment through. If I do, I’ll communicate so in the thread.

      • Anony Mole Says:

        So much for civilized discourse.

        I may not believe a word written on this site – but I believe in everyone’s right to say it – provided it’s done in a civil manner. Now, I realize this site is not a free-discourse site, it’s run and controlled by an owner who has the right to run it and control it as they see fit. If Ms. Yugo was found to violate the owner’s principles then so be it. All I read, however, was consistent inconsistency, heated debate over a debatable topic, and general disagreement over every topic – so what? Banning over a breach in conduct is one thing, over beliefs and assumptions quite another? I’m afraid the world has tired of tyrants.

        If you intend to erase all of Ms. Yugos posts from your site – then kindly do the same for me – retroactively. Bye.

      • brucefast Says:

        Anony,

        Please understand that maryyugo was not kicked off of this site because she has a different opinion from my own. And please challenge yourself to consider that if discourse is not civilized it may be because only one of the parties is determined to abandon reasoned dialog.

        Maryyugo presented no evidence of anything. She only said that there was no evidence. She kept changing her definition of evidence to disclude any evidence placed on the table. This is not discourse. Look at the links I used when addressing her. I presented data upon data. She responded to data with insults. (http://nickelpower.org/2012/01/31/inadvertent-miswiring-of-leads-is-the-cause/#comment-5465) This is not logical discourse. It is this:

        This site is not an “opinion” site. The topic is not art, where everyone’s view is correct. This is a science site which there is an absolute truth that we are trying to determine. Trying to determine this absolute truth is done using data and logic, ie reason. There is no IQ test or intelligence standard for participating in this site. Everyone on this site is both student and teacher, including myself. If someone rejects all evidence, they cease to be student, so are not welcome.

  19. maryyugo Says:

    “brucefast Says:
    February 3, 2012 at 11:55 am

    http://nickelpower.org/2012/01/31/inadvertent-miswiring-of-leads-is-the-cause/#comment-5360
    and now
    http://nickelpower.org/2012/01/31/inadvertent-miswiring-of-leads-is-the-cause/#comment-5458

    I responded to both. The blog does not always allow responses to follow the original post one is responding to. when it doesn’t, I quote the item I am responding to.

  20. maryyugo Says:

    “Show Dr. Levi where he is wrong, or discover that water is REALLY GOOD at removing heat from a system.”

    Jeez! What does it take to make you understand. You can’t remove 130 kW in a small volume like that without high pressures and temperatures which would blow up the E-cat.

    Levi never CALIBRATED HIS INSTRUMENTS. He could have placed a thermocouple near or in contact with a heater inside the E-cat and never known it. He probably never had anywhere near 10 kW much less 130. He probably made an error in his T-out measurement.

    All of this is moot if he simply repeats the experiment. If he’s worried it will blow up, do it in the desert. A good violent explosion would be quite convincing. Unfortunately, we’ve never seen one. Nor have we seen a single decent properly conducted experiment involving either an E-cat or a Defkalion Hyperion.

    • AlpCns Says:

      “You can’t remove 130 kW in a small volume like that without high pressures and temperatures which would blow up the E-cat.”

      Really? Odd. How come you are so sure of that? Many, many moons ago, I remember seeing something (also) impossible: a (much) heavier-than-air-craft thundering aloft producing 1 BILLION horsepower. And guess what? It didn’t blow up, but instead flew to the moon. Basically, it was a controlled explosion with the potential power of the Hiroshima A-bomb. They called it the Saturn V booster.

      That 1 billion horsepower (200 million horsepower per engine) was produced in a combustion chamber of rather small volume and it was, yes, liquid (fuel) cooled. I guess we did a lot of things wrong in those days.

      Maybe we misplaced the thermocouples and therefore the turbopumps never shut down. Or it could be faulty wiring, too.

      • brucefast Says:

        “Many, many moons ago, I remember seeing something (also) impossible: …”
        absorbing 130kw with water at a flowrate of 1 l/s isn’t really all that hard. Maryyugo knows nothing, (s)he stated so her/himself. Further, if you look at the energy requirements of on demand hot water heaters you see just how much energy water can absorb.

  21. brucefast Says:

    maryyugo, see http://nickelpower.org/2012/01/31/inadvertent-miswiring-of-leads-is-the-cause/#comment-5476
    You have been the first to be banned from this site.

    Bloody pity, it was hilarious there for a while.

  22. AlpCns Says:

    I agree, of course. She/he/it made a good suggestion, however, namely to clean the floor :-)

  23. Miff Says:

    Why would you ban someone who has a different view.?
    Also in regards to the expose on this site of the Bryce claims I understood Bryces reference to the mis connection was in relation to the March demonstration where the power could have easily come from a standard 220-240 circuit.

    You are referring to demonstrations where the power was a lot higher. Bryce believes in that case the thermocouples or other instruments could have been misplaced.

    Can you address the march. Test. Do you understand how power coming up another lead could have given the result? The Swedish scientist who witnessed the test told Bryce that mis wiring could be the explanation – how can you know better than him?

    • brucefast Says:

      I have not banned Bryce. He left.

      While it is true that a miswiring could account for the evidence in some of Rossi’s demonstrations, it can’t account for the evidence in all of them. Dismissing the best evidence because it doesn’t fit the hypothesis seems pretty lame to me.

      I also have lambasted Bryce rather hard because he didn’t state his hypothesis as a possibility, he stated it as an established fact. When I called him on it, he didn’t say, “sorry, I over-stepped, my communication was in error”, rather he said that he didn’t say what he said. If he had any integrity at all, he/the Australian Skeptic Society would publish a correction.

      • Ian Bryce Says:

        Following the Australian Skeptics expose, there has been confusion over which mistakes apply to which tests. Let me clarify.

        LIST OF ECAT TESTS AND CONCLUSIONS

        A: EARTH WIRE HYPOTHESIS – UP TO JULY
        My hypothesis is that the earth wire was misconnected to the active pin in the power plug, thus it could carry extra power past the metering, to a second set of power controllers in the blue box and hence into the ECAT.

        16 Dec 2011- report by Levi – 10 KW ECAT – Pout could be 2900 W if 10% vaporization, therefore earth wire theory fits.

        14 Jan 2011 – Levi – 10 KW ECAT – Pin = 400W, Pout could be 2.900 W if 10% vaporization, therefore earth wire theory fits.

        10 Feb – 10 KW ECAT – Levi states the reactor volume is 1 litre, and he measured 130 KW briefly. This is not possible – it would melt down. His measurements must be in error.

        29 March – Kullander & Essen – 3 KW EACT – Pin = 300 W, Pout = 2600 W (Bryce simulation), therefore the earth wire theory fits.

        19 April – Lewan –3 KW ECAT – Pin = 345 W, Pout = 2600 W (Lewan), therefore the earth wire theory fits.

        28 April – Lewan – unclear which 3 KW ECAT – Pin = 378 W, Pout = 2300 W, therefore the earth wire theory fits.

        14-15 June – Krivit – truncated chimney 3KW ECAT – Pin – 805 W, Pout not stated, therefore the earth wire theory fits.

        NOTE – UP TO JULY, NO ONE HAD MEASURED THE EARTH WIRE DURING A TEST. If an observer approached the instruments, it would be simple to momentarily turn off those power controllers running from the earth wire so zero current would be observed.

        B: MISPLACED THERMOCOUPLE ON HEAT EXCHANGER
        T(out) responding to a combination of primary circuit steam temperature and water outlet temperature, giving false high reading.

        5-6 Sept – John Preston and NASA – new large 27 KW ECAT – the reactor failed to produce excess heat.

        7 Sept – Lewan – 27 KW ECAT – Pin = 2.6 KW, Pout = between 3.8 and 7.8 KW (Lewan), misplaced thermocouple theory fits.

        6 Oct – Lewan – 27 KW ECAT – Pin = 315 W, Pout = 3125 W (Lewan). Misplaced thermocouple theory fits.

        C: MEGAWATT DEVICE – NO REAL MEASUREMENTS

        28 Oct 2011 – report by Sterling Allan of PESN – the 30 guests were not able to make any real inspection or measurements. The large generator was running all the time. Hence no real demonstration of power gain.

        IN SUMMARY – ON MY UNDERSTANDING, IN EVERY TEST, THERE HAS BEEN A SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF THE MEASUREMENTS WITHOUT SHOWING POWER GAIN. EVIDENCE FOR COLD FUSION COLLAPSES.

      • brucefast Says:

        Mr Bryce,

        While I could debate the nitty-gritty of the Rossi demos, as you continue to do, I don’t see it to be relevant. I have two bones to pick with you.

        1 – In my opinion, by stating “INADVERTENT MISWIRING OF LEADS IS THE CAUSE!” as the sub-headline of your article, you overstated your case. While you may be correct, and Rossi may be a complete fraud, you have not proven that this is so. While you do suggest that your opinion is only an hypothesis in your article, you abandoned this truth for appeal when you wrote your headline. This is hack journalism, not professional science.

        2 – One of your primary arguments against Rossi is that the phenomenon he reports, excess heat from a Nickel + Hydrogen reaction, is scientifically invalid. As you hold this postion, it would seem obligatory that you familiarize yourself with the evidence before shooting off your mouth. I have spoon-fed you the evidence. For you to claim a scientific critique of Rossi’s work, you must either avoid the “its not a scientifically possible phenomenon” or demonstrate that these scientists are full of it as well:

        Dr. Brian Ahern, Ames National Laboratory
        Dr. Joseph Zawodny, NASA
        Quintin Bowles, University of Missouri–Kansas City.
        George Miley, University of Illinois
        Piantelli, University of Siena, Italy.
        Mike McKubre, SRI
        Francesco Celani, National Institute of Nuclear Physics (Italy’s equivalent of Los Alamos)
        and
        M. Swartz, demonstrating at MIT
        (http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-december-30-2011/)

        I have stated on multiple occasions that Rossi is beside the point (search google with: Rossi is beside the point
        site:nickelpower.org) If Rossi is beside the point, pointing out how Rossi could have faked it is totally irrelevant.

        For publishing an hypothesis as a declarative fact, and for declaring something as scientifically impossible without addressing the scientists who have done it, I declare you a disgrace to science and a disgrace to skepticism.

        This forum is open for you to defend your position, or to discover that we followers of the science of nickel power are not full of it.

      • brucefast Says:

        Oh, um, the only change that needs to be made to your article to give it integrity is to throw in a question mark. A sub-headline that read, “INADVERTENT MISWIRING OF LEADS IS THE CAUSE?” would not offend truth.

      • Ian Bryce Says:

        A question mark after the subheading? Yes, that would be better. Will change it at next opportunity.
        The message is certainly in the text that this is a HYPOTHESIS, and my efforts are directed to seeing if it fits the facts.
        If and when strong evidence arises to the contrary, I will withdraw it.

        Re the list of scientists relating to replicating nickel-hydrogen power, that is outside my current scope. I will merely note that AFAIK, none have validated power levels of kilowatts (or even watts), so Rossi’s claims are of utmost importance. And the US Defence Dept. has said after a long study that there are no soundly replicated demonstrations of LENR, so again it is critical to find out whether the ECAT results stand up.

        Brucefast wrote to me: “I declare you a disgrace to science and a disgrace to skepticism.” This is a very offensive insult and i request that you withdraw it.

      • brucefast Says:

        Ian,
        welcome to the land of the student teacher. Please consider the contents of this post, http://nickelpower.org/2012/02/02/extraordinary-claims/#more-273
        and especially also the comment thread started by Jonathan.

        While I would not give Rossi money as an investment at this point, it is my opinion that the only claim that Rossi is alone on is the claim of being first to offer commercially meaningful output power. There are at least 3 sources now who claim a COP > 3, the absolute minimum that can be meaningfully harnessed into electricity. (All three claim COP > 10, which is rather easy to harness.)

        However, on the question of scientific validity, a COP of 1.00*1 is a HUGE deal. The strong conclusion I have come to, based upon the notable scientists who have claimed it, is that a COP > 1 from nickel and hydrogen has been repeatedly replicated. It is, in my strong opinion, a scientific phenomenon. The fact that the scientific world, including the DOD, and wikipedia reject it is, in my opinion, well, silly.

        Further, if LENR is real, even if it has not yet been meaningfully harnessed, it should be a scientific BIG DEAL! Any time scientific theory is no longer adequate, it should be a big deal. Any time a scientific phenomenon holds the potential of rescuing the world from the complications of the existing paradigm it should be a BIG DEAL! In light of: global warming, oil wars, economic crisis, peak oil, carcinogens etc., this should be a BIG DEAL.

        The level of interest we place in something should, in my opinion be: importance * possibility. As the importance of LENR is pretty much off the charts, as soon as its possibility is > 0, it should be a BIG DEAL! With the number of Ph.D.’s from a diversity of labs claiming that they have achieved success, its time to decide that the possibility of LENR is > 0. Therefore LENR should be a BIG DEAL! Currently it is not.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Bruce – that is the best statement I’ve seen of the importance of the phenomenon. Whether Rossi has/has not fudged his results for whatever reason, and whether he has fooled people or has willing accomplices in such fooling, are sideshows. What Rossi has done is to bring this phenomenon of LENR into public knowledge. It is now being looked at by other scientists, who can see the science is good and thus ignore the label of “pathological science”. As such, it won’t be that long now before there are several different ways of achieving this low-cost energy supply. He has started a race to commercialisation, and this can only be to the advantage of energy-users anywhere in the world.

        Mr. Bryce – There’s no good proof either way yet – at least not enough to satisfy a court (or a failure analyst). There are a lot of ways of getting bad results apart from plain fraud. My own feeling is that Rossi has had his system work with, at times, a COP in the hundreds. I also feel that his control systems are currently not good, and that his public demos maybe didn’t actually start up properly. I’m glad you accept the question mark in your statement – you cannot prove it, just demonstrate it is possible.

        Up till recently, all the published experiments in LENR had uncertainty as to whether the particular cell/assembly would work, or when it would work. I think Rossi’s has been no different, but maybe with NI helping him he will overcome that. And then there’s Defkalion, who will soon bet the ranch on their system working as advertised. At that point, you will not be able to say the science is not valid.

  24. Bob Norman Says:

    May I be the first to congratulate you on your first ban. Not that you have done it, I’m sure it wasn’t as hard as you thought it may be.
    A good honest debate is great, but some people can just grind on you. MY was such a case.

  25. Anders Says:

    Dear all. Remember that Europe is actually wired with 3-phase 400 volt power into the house. You dependend on neutral wire to get 220 volt normal power.

    If Rossi re-wired his wall outlet to 3-phase 400 volt with 16A protection he can tap 11 kW continuous from this wall socket.

    If he sabotage the protection he can tap double that for an hour without much risk of fire.

    • brucefast Says:

      Anders,
      If you search google with “becide the point post:www.nickelpower.org” you will repeatedly find me stating that Rossi is beside the point. Please read: Replicators to see all of the top end scientists at top end institutions that also claim excess heat from the nickel + hydrogen reaction. Rossi surely didn’t rewire all of these. Whether Rossi has the straight goods or not, nickel + hydrogen LENR is. (I find it inconceivable that Rossi would be a fraud, but that Defkalion used his fraudulent story to produce their own working reaction — absolutely inconceivable.)

    • Ian Bryce Says:

      An update from Ian Bryce. I now have published a long article at http://www.skeptics.com.au/latest/news/rossi-e-cat-technical-paper/

      Firstly to reply to Anders – the photos and videos show Rossi using a normal single phase wall outlet. This will provide about 3 kW max, which can account for the real power output (reworked from temperature history) from all Rossi’s demonstrations up to 29 March 2011 (ie those observed closely by scientists). After that date, the whole setup changed and the temperature thermocpuple was misplaced.
      Simply miswiring the power plug and the blue box us far simpler than reconfiguring the power wiring of a rented building.

      Secondly to reply to Brucefast – the “replicators” claimed powers are so small, eg 18 milliW compared to Rossi’s 1 Megawatt – 100 million times smaller – how can you say Rossi is irrelevant?
      Anyway they have NOT been replicated. If they had, different researchers would agree on the figures. Such tiny powers are obtained by subtracting away almost equal quantities – easily explained in terms of measurement noise, minor chemical effects, selection of the best results, and wishful thinking.

      Thirdly re Defkalion – Brucefast’s inability to see inside the mind of scamsters hardly amounts to evidence! A detailed explanation is suggested in my new article above.

      • brucefast Says:

        “how can you say Rossi is irrelevant?” I say that Rossi is irrelevant because if the entire Rossi story were to evaporate, the evidence for the Ni + H reaction would be little effected. Though Rossi claims total power output that is impressive, head and shoulders above what the published scientists have reported, the published scientists still have established their position.

        “Such tiny powers are obtained by subtracting away almost equal quantities – easily explained in terms of measurement noise, minor chemical effects, selection of the best results, and wishful thinking.”

        Are you ready to stand firm on this claim in honest debate?

      • Anders Says:

        Hi!

        Yes, the videos show Rossi using a normal 220 volt wall outlet. My point exactly, just that I explain that a smart man can easily reconfigure this wall socket to supply 12 KW easily if he know what he is doing and if he know how power distribution in Europe works. This is without pulling new wires.
        This is just a quick reconnect in the wall socket and the power central of the house

        3 times 400 volts at 16 amp can be distributed along the normal blue-brown-yellowgreen wires that are in the wall socket. You just ditch the ground (scary, right, but who cares), and use 3 wires to distribute 3 phases. The 400 volts are already distributed into the house, where one normally uses one phase together with the null-wire to get your common 220 volt.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Anders – in a house or factory wiring job, the blue wires will all be connected together back to the trip or fuse, and all the green/yellow wires will be connected together at the ground. You can thus possibly get two wires available for other phases at one particular socket, but you would have to run the third yourself rather than just use the green/yellow, which will be connected to all the other earth wires in the factory. You’d end up with other sockets on that line electrifying the case of any earthed device plugged in to them. A factory will likely have multiple earth stakes, too, which means following the green/yellow path to earth can be a bit complex. Messing with the wiring this way would lead to prosecution (and maybe electrocution) if it was found out.

        Given the difficulty of doing all this it would in fact be easier to just raise the fuse or trip rating.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Ian – I’ve read the article and you’re still making the same hypothesis you were before. Whereas I agree with you that the measurements Rossi made were severely flawed, his system is based on Piantelli’s patents (lapsed – look them up) who claimed very scientifically a COP of 2-3. Piantelli had some problems with reproducibility, too.

        Since I accept Piantelli’s results as good, it makes more sense to me that Rossi’s bad measurements (that he claimed as a COP of from 6 to 200 in various publications) actually were a COP of between 2 and 3, and that he didn’t need to rewire the building wiring or the plugs. I think that Rossi has seen some surprising values of output, but could not produce them at will and they weren’t in evidence at his public demonstrations.

        I may be wrong in this, but I do think that Rossi has not seriously fudged his results but has measured them badly himself and is convinced that it works as he says. As such, the wiring trick would not be needed or wanted.

        You try to compare the milliwatts other people are producing with the claimed megawatts Rossi is producing, and thus say that it is not reasonable. You should also look at the quantities of fuel used – to get that claimed megawatt Rossi is using somewhere round 10kg of Nickel powder with a surface areas of maybe 20-40 square metres per gram, so 200,000 to 400,000 square metres of surface area. That’s quite a large area, relative to the odd few square centimetres other researchers are using. Scaling by this much will give large results, even if the power per square metre is somewhat low.

        Your co-author Steve Novella shows the normal skepticism of a scientist who has not personally read the research papers, but he at least accepts that such research should not be stopped from occurring since, if true, the rewards are very high. I’m not sure why you got a neurologist to explain physics to your public, though.

      • brucefast Says:

        Alas, Ian,
        In hopes that you are prepared to put your money where your 18mw mouth is, please consider this quote:

        Dr. Brian Ahern, Ames National Laboratory, say that he is showing “5 watt of excess heat”. Is it your contention that Ames National Laboratory is able to miss-measure 5 watts? http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg47437.html

      • brucefast Says:

        Ian,
        If you aren’t a little more responsive, the counter-case keeps getting bigger on you. Now nickelpower.org has published another LENR find. But don’t worry, its just some physicist publishing on some dedicated science research site claiming infinite COP, and more than 2x of known chemical reactions. After all, real physicists mismeasure 1479J all of the time.

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