450c is Plenty Hot for Steam Power

Rossi recently said, “We have found a breakthrough with a primary fluid with wich the reactors remain stable when we make steam at 450 Celsius. ” (http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/andrea-rossi-working-with-domenico-fioravanti-on-electrical-power-from-e-cat/#comment-9822)

This is lots of heat for efficient steam power!  The CyclonePower steam engines run at temperatures as low as 260c (500f) http://www.cyclonepower.com/whe.html  With the ability to output 450c, we are seriously in the zone of seeing a steam powered custom car in 2012.

This also shows that continuing enhancement path that I discussed under A Case for Rossi.

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47 Responses to “450c is Plenty Hot for Steam Power”

  1. Bob Norman Says:

    This is truly great news. Higher temperatures for better efficiency, plus this will provide the steam volume for turbines, which was a bit marginal before. This capability moved into cars, presents great opportunities for new features and performance.

  2. Theodore Rigley Says:

    As far as steam cars go, bring back the Doble. This was an amazing vehicle, and its design principles, realized with today’s materials, would produce a fantastic car. And, if it’s really for real, the e-cat to power it would be perfect.

    • brucefast Says:

      The Doble was really cool. Modern steam engines, like those developed by cyclone power (cyclonepower.com) use the same regenerative principles as the Doble does. However, the Doble leaked oil into the water, requiring a renewal of the water on a regular basis. Further, car body and electronic control has come a long way since the Doble.

  3. Rockyspoon Says:

    The cyclone engine uses no oil for lubricant–just water. And because full pressure is available from a standstill, it doesn’t need a transmission either.

  4. Bob Norman Says:

    I read where the 450 temperature melts the lead, bit I guess that’s ok as long as its contained, it can still serve its purpose. Most of the heavy plastics like the Tungsten plastic cant take these temperatures either. Maybe we have to live with molten lead in the design unless anyone knows of something else that will work.

  5. Craig Binns Says:

    It must do a good job too, Iggy. No gamma rays have ever been detected near a Rossi contraption!

    • Bob Says:

      The whole radiation thing may be a false flag to mix people up. I’m not sure there is a need for it, but it should be one of the first priority things to resolve when someone gets their hands on a machine.

  6. Bob Says:

    I see on Rossi’s blog that he has picked the fluid to run in the Ecat for making electricity. He mentioned that they are making good progress. Nothing would be better than having him demonstrate making electricity. I would like to see a small unit that would be appropriate for the home. Lets hope!

  7. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    http://www.wimp.com/stirlingengine/

  8. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Someone wrote Rossi about this mini steam turbine:

    “The weight of a GREEN TURBINEtm of 2,5 kW output is approximately 8 kg, The length is 28 cm, diameter is 19 cm.

    Steam pressure is 5,2 bar absolute, condenser pressure is 0,1 bar.
    A higher condenser pressure (0,25 bar) is possible but output and efficiency will be lower.
    Temperature of the steam is 200 C.

    The generators deliver 3 phase AC, frequency 1000 Hz. After rectification the power is fed to a DC/AC converter, capable of conversion to the desired output (e.g. 120 VAC/60 Hz). The smallest size of the GREEN TURBINEtm will deliver 1 kW, the largest size 15 kW. Up to 95% efficiency.”
    http://www.greenturbine.eu/en/product.php

    • brucefast Says:

      “Up to 95% efficiency.” I would presume that this is 95% of theoretical (carnot) efficiency. At 200c that’s still not very good. At 450c, its a whole lot better.

      • alaincoe Says:

        95% is in CHP mode…
        part of the heat is used for produce mechanical energy, and the rest to heat the house…

        anyway the problem of CHP is that electricity production is linked to heating needs.
        CHP is very good in countries where electricity is awfully expensive (like in germany)… for French it looks stupid.

        anyway with LENR if you accept to waste some heat outside like in a classic power plant, this can work all year, and negate your electricity bill.

  9. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    “A CHP domestic heater with a GREEN TURBINE-TM can have an overall efficiency of 95% or higher and will save 1 ton CO2 annually. That is because part of the electricity we need in a household is self-generated and not purchased from the grid. Public power plants generate electricity with an efficiency of approx. 45%. So 55% of the energy is waste heat, dumped in the environment. The fossil fuel, associated with this 55% waste energy, is converted to CO2 and can be saved if we use CHP. If all 80 million households in the US use CHP units, 80 million tons CO2 annually will be saved. This represents a huge decrease in CO2 output, not only in absolute terms but also relatively.”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~
    There was no explanation of the abbreviation “CHP”. It may have stood for ‘combined heat and power’. So the 95% may have not been true efficiency but equivalent efficiency due to the salvaged heat from co-generation.

    • brucefast Says:

      Yes, combining heating with electricity generation can get to that zone of efficiency. I did not read that in their literature, though I didn’t study it by any means.

      A major chink in the “heating + electricity” equation, however, is that the heat must be a wanted thing. Where I come from, at this time of year, that’s pretty easy. But if your mission is to keep your residence cool, the only use you have for heat is for hot water. Beyond that the heat is just trouble.

      That said, I think that these guys with their little, efficient, quiet turbine system will be sittin’ in the catbird seat soon enough.

  10. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I bet the cost of the turbine/generator would be many
    times the cost of the E-Cat….maybe 15 or 20 thousand.

    • brucefast Says:

      These systems will become cheap when gazillions of them are sold. The Chinese will get hold of ‘em and make ‘em for just a few bucks more than the cost of materials.

    • alaincoe Says:

      since LENr energy is cheap, you should choose simple and rough turbines, not the very efficient low temperature turbines, that cost 10 time the usual cost…

      this is a big paradigm change not to focus on efficiency, or consumption, but on investment and maintenance.
      LENR cost is only investment and maintenance. no real cost of raw material.

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  12. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    They are discussing Stirling ‘turbine’ engines on Rossi’s blog. Not sure if this is what they are discussing but this design resembles the rotary ICE that Simon posted several months back.
    http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca/QTStirling.html

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Ah, here’s the type that is discussed on Rossi Journal.
      It uses an enlongated rotating hemi-piston and a slotted rotating piston with a sliding vane. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Schemat_silnika_A._W%C4%85sowskiego_%28WASE_2%29.gif

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I don’t understand how the rotating half-pistons do any work.

        The sliding vane works like a Judson supercharger.
        http://mg-tabc.org/supercharger/blowervane.jpg

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – the half-pistons displace the air from being in contact with the hot face to being in contact with the cold face. They thus produce a pressure variation in the cylinder, which is rectified using valves to produce a flow of gas running in one direction (that big blue box bottom left). The gas-flow then runs a simple motor (that Judson supercharger-like thing) – here shown with two vanes not the normal 6 or so. They’ve made the schematic a bit too simple, but the idea is good. The rotating half-pistons only use energy in friction and do not do any work.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Seems like a rotating piston would be a poor heat conductor. Why not a rotating cylinder? The cylinder would have heat-absorber-fins on one longitudinal half and radiator-fins on the other longitudinal half. On 180° of rotation the absorber-fins would dip through the hot chamber, or better yet, molten sodium. The other 180° of rotation, the radiator-fins would pass through cool air or water.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – I worked on various improvements a while ago – refer to http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=GB&NR=2308864A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=&date=19970709&DB=&locale=en_EP for some detail. The problem with most designs is that they heat and cool various parts of the engine, so energy is lost or there are delays in heat transfer. If you ensure that you only heat the gas you are working on, and that the various parts of the heat-engine remain at pretty well a constant temperature, you can achieve high efficiencies in real terms. In that patent (not granted!), I used percentage efficiency as percentage of Carnot efficiency. Carnot efficiency is in fact 100% of the fuel energy translated into work, if you invert the equations. I’ll explain this more if you wish….

  13. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Go ahead and explain but it’ll probably be over my head. It seems to me that a Stirling piston engine would be superior in efficiency and torque to a Stirling turbine, although perhaps you could possibly design a turbine that would be cheaper to build.

  14. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Iggy – Carnot efficiency takes a starting-point of absolute zero. It thus considers the energy in the working medium (gas in this case) as the total energy available above absolute zero. In the real world, we normally start off with the gas at ambient temperature and raise this to the top temperature – this takes less energy to do than starting at absolute zero, since it’s already been raised to ambient. That extra energy is supplied by burning fuel, and we measure the calorific value of the fuel by looking at the temperature rise when we burn a set amount.

    So if we start with air at 27°C (300K) and we raise it to 327°C (600K) we only have to supply half the energy that Carnot says is in the gas. A Carnot engine will then get half the total energy out in work by dropping the temperature to 27°C again – 50% efficiency. In terms of the energy we put in, it’s actually 100% in engineering terms.

    These efficiency calculations, beloved in the textbooks, tend to cloud the issue as to what is really happening and how much fuel we have to burn to get a certain amount of work out. It does make the maths easier, though, to have a zero-point.

    It helps to ask what you put in and what you get out (and what it costs you), thus reducing it to real-world problems. The COP is a good way of stating efficiencies, since it does just that.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      Simon, I’m amazed at the rapid heat transfer ability of a heat-pipe. Do you think that heat-pipe technology could be used to improve a Stirling engine?

      This video has poor audio but the condenser end of the heat-pipe end up 60° hotter that lower liquid end where the flame is applied.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – I don’t know enough about heat-pipes to say. They transfer heat quickly, but I can’t see it getting hotter at the other end, as in the video. If this is true, then it’s breaking thermodynamics (not that I get too worried about that) in that heat is moving on its own from a cooler place to a hotter place. If this is known to be right, then the textbooks are wrong….

        Again if it works as shown, then it could indeed make a Stirling engine more efficient (in fact over-unity), and so I wonder why we don’t see it in use as such.

        I’d have to measure it myself before I believed it. The heat-pipe would need thermocouples at each end and be heated at the bottom end in a water-bath, since the blowlamp is definitely hotter than 180°F. The slight delay (in the video) before measuring the hot end temperature would allow the water inside it down there to cool the pipe outside, thus giving a false measurement.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I may be wrong but I think the H-P above uses acetone instead of water.

        Here’s a link on a new Stirling motor sent to Rossi by Lepczac.
        The company claims that it’s device can be run in reverse for cooling. http://machinedesign.com/article/infinia-uses-stirling-cycle-for-solar-power-and-air-conditioning-0811

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – that is a really good design. They cost a lot at the moment, but almost worth it for a domestic use and definitely cost-effective commercially. Pay-back looks around the 7-year mark, but that will fall as the device gets cheaper. At the moment over a 25-year life it gives you power at around 1/3 the cost of standard electricity.

        You get much more power for a certain volume/weight of a gas-filled heat engine by raising the internal pressure. Smaller temperature differences can then be utilised to make useful amounts of power, too. As it happens, they are using 650°C for their design, which makes for high efficiencies (Carnot-style!) and high power outputs. It can also be tuned to run at, say, 100°C input temperature for Rossi’s projected domestic units.

        Imagine a load of these in a desert area – low land-costs, lots of sun, little pollution to clean off. Someone’s got to do it – Shipstone Power corporation?

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Here’s an animated view of Infinia’s Stirling device.
        http://www.infiniacorp.com/howitworks.html

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        ShipRock, New Mexico

        http://www.lapahie.com/Pictures/Shiprock_1914_Sh.jpg

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Shiprock is near the Four-Corners 2,040 megawatt powerplant.

        https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8SdDNfoia4euRRAHSQjPVFtXY878JkKcSH4yL8g2pEHx66MBL

  15. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Iggy – looks like you didn’t read Heinlein when you were younger. I still enjoy them now and again. The Shipstone Power company was founded on an invention of a battery. It was never patented, but kept secret, and an odd hundredweight-or-so battery would run your house for a year. If you tried to take it to bits to find out how to make one, it exploded and thus the company kept its secret and took over virtually all the world’s companies and governments. Control the energy, you control everything…. They charged their batteries using sunlight in the Mexican desert, if I remember it right.

    Maybe it is science fiction, but the lesson is still there and makes sense.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      No, I never read about Shipstone but Shiprock is a prominent landmark in the SouthWest. You can see it in the distance for about an hour before you arrive. Four Corners is where Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Utah all corner up.

  16. iggydalrymple Says:

    Cyclone Secures Agreement to Manufacture Engines For Phoenix Power Group’s Proprietary Waste Oil to Power Systems
    POMPANO BEACH, FL, (Accesswire – October 8, 2013) – Cyclone Power Technologies Inc. (CYPW), developer of the all-fuel clean-tech Cyclone Engine, announced today that it has signed a revised and restated License Agreement with Phoenix Power Group LLC. Under this agreement, Cyclone and its waste-to-power operating subsidiary, Cyclone-WHE LLC, will manufacture and supply Phoenix with a minimum of 6,500 engines over the next five years.
    Phoenix is Cyclone’s exclusive, worldwide licensee with rights to utilize Cyclone engines to produce power from the clean combustion of used motor oil, as well as other waste fuels and engine lubricants. Phoenix’s distributors currently control 70% of the used motor oil furnace market, with more than 150,000 such heat-producing units beings sold over the last several decades.
    Under the terms of this new agreement, Phoenix will purchase engines for a period of at least five years from Cyclone-WHE at prices to be determined at a future date. In order to maintain its exclusivity under the ten-year license, Phoenix must purchase at least 6,500 engines during the initial five-year period after delivery of the first running prototypes. The 10hp Waste Heat Engine (WHE) model will be the first engine to be provided; however, all Cyclone engines are covered under the license. Upon completing certain engine development milestones, the agreement will be transferred to Cyclone-WHE to execute the production phase of this program.
    “This is an important agreement for Cyclone and its shareholders, as it provides Cyclone-WHE with its first committed customer to purchase engines over an extended period of time for a solid and proven distribution pipeline. We expect this will generate substantial product sales revenue, as opposed to license royalties, and a firm base to ramp up our manufacturing operations. We’re thrilled to be working with the capable and well supported team at Phoenix on the launch of our engines,” stated Christopher Nelson, President of Cyclone and Managing Director of Cyclone-WHE.
    Thomas Thillen, President of Phoenix, stated: “We have seen great progress at Cyclone over the last few months with their focus on commercialization of the WHE. The addition of the engineering team at Ohio State University and the manufacturing capacity with Precision CNC has provided us confidence that we will see Cyclone engines in Phoenix used oil cogeneration systems in the near future. We are supportive of their development path, and look forward to a long, mutually profitable business relationship.”
    About Cyclone Power Technologies
    Cyclone Power Technologies is the developer of the award-winning Cyclone Engine – an all-fuel, clean-tech engine with the power and versatility to run everything from waste energy electric generators and solar thermal systems to cars, trucks and locomotives. Invented by company founder and Chairman Harry Schoell, the patented Cyclone Engine is an eco-friendly external combustion engine, ingeniously designed to achieve high thermal efficiencies through a compact heat-regenerative process, and to run on virtually any fuel – including bio-diesels, syngas or solar – while emitting fewer greenhouse gases and irritating pollutants into the air. The Cyclone Engine was recognized by Popular Science Magazine as the Invention of the Year for 2008, and was presented with two Society of Automotive Engineers’ AEI Tech Awards. Additionally, Cyclone was named Environmental Business of the Year by the Broward County (Florida) Environmental Protection Department. For more information, visit http://www.cyclonepower.com/.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cyclone-secures-agreement-manufacture-engines-083600324.html

    ~~~~~~

    Cyclone Completes First Phase of Commercialization Program With The Ohio State University’s Center for Automotive Research
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cyclone-completes-first-phase-commercialization-131000578.html

    ~~~~~~

    Cyclone and Precision CNC Sign Lease for New Manufacturing Facility; Partnership With The Windsor Company Will Expedite Ramp-Up of Production Operations
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cyclone-precision-cnc-sign-lease-131500704.html

  17. Craig Binns Says:

    Cyclone is very active in the fields of licensing agreements and patenting and issuing press announcements about such matters. What is not clear to me is this:

    Have they in fact sold any engines in the normal commercial marketplace?

    Have they ever paid a dividend?

    Do you have any info on that Iggy?

    I really would like to know.

    • iggydalrymple Says:

      Cyclone is still in their startup phase.
      Amazon went for years before they made a profit.
      Neither Amazon nor Google has ever paid a dividend.

  18. brucefast Says:

    I own some Cyclone, not that I could quit owning it, there’s no market for it. That said, Cyclone may become an interesting company in their own right.

    But Cyclone’s real hope will be when the LENR revolution begins. Cyclone engineers are a storehouse of knowledge on steam power, which will be of prime importance once LENR gets noticed. Further, their intellectual property will become valuable when engineers start trying to fit LENR into cars, etc.

    What I expect is going to happen, as it has in every other technological revolution, is that there will be a gazillion startups. Every little company that somehow claims title to anything LENR will have all the investment money in the world thrown at them. One of those companies will be Cyclone, (unless LENR straight to electricity becomes ubiquitous and powerful.)

    As always happens, there will be a welling up of all manner of mostly silly companies, then the company count will go down by attrition, by buyouts, by investors wanting to get onto bandwagons that are actually going some place — the bubble will pop.

    Bottom line, Cyclone is nothing right now, and will probably remain so until LENR gets discovered. You can buy 1000 shares for about $10, last time I checked. But once LENR makes the front cover of Time, the share price will look much more exciting — if the company makes it that far.

    • Craig Binns Says:

      Brucefast

      If what you say is right re LENR and Cyclone, then this must be an incorrect prospectus, quoted from Iggy’s source:

      “Invented by company founder and Chairman Harry Schoell, the patented Cyclone Engine is an eco-friendly external combustion engine, ingeniously designed to achieve high thermal efficiencies through a compact heat-regenerative process, and to run on virtually any fuel – including bio-diesels, syngas or solar – while emitting fewer greenhouse gases and irritating pollutants into the air.”

      I take the point about dividend payments, but in the case of Cyclone, the reason may well be that it has nothing in the marketplace. Correct me if I’m wrong. Amazon, on the other hand, does manage to sell things.

      • iggydalrymple Says:

        FWIW, I emailed Cyclone several months ago and asked if they were in contact with Rossi. They replied that they were in discussions with a competitor of Rossi’s. I interpreted that to mean Brillouin or Defkalion, most likely the latter.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        Iggy

        You say “Cyclone is still in their startup phase.” Well, so is Phoenix Power Group, judging by their site. It is rather disquieting that Cyclone should be very talkative about their relationship with other companies, while telling you so little in response to your important question about Rossi.

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