Defkalion, the Piantelli connection

Defkalion claims to have technology that is “ahead of Rossi”. They claim that they will reveal, “announcements and initiated testing and certification by independent third parties.” in early December (15 days from November 20). They claim that they do not use Rossi’s methods. (http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/defkalion-claims-to-have-what-they-call.html)

But there’s more to this story.  Check out this post on Defkalion’s blog.  Maryyugo suggested that Defkalion has a relationship with Piantelli.  The official line from Defkalion is that “we never answer/comment any post that is based on speculations.”  However, a poster named Engineer says, “Indeed the html code for the image reads: /files/1/2011/11/18/Piantelli-engine%5B1%5D.jpg”

It is interesting that Defkalion would claim that they are “different from those of Rossi.”  As Rossi claims that he has not revealed his catalyst to them, this is an interesting and brave claim.  However, if they have a relationship with Piantelli, as Piantelli is clearly a previous inventor, this may give them the legal protection that they need.

The biggest thing that concerns me about Defkalion is the fear that they and Rossi get embroiled in a legal war that stops either technology from progressing.

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49 Responses to “Defkalion, the Piantelli connection”

  1. Bob Norman Says:

    I wouldn’t worry too much about a patent fight slowing things down. Many times charges are not filed until there is material damage as shown by lost revenue from the offending party. If you can show willful violation, then you may be talking triple damages. The longer they wait to file charges, the bigger the settlement, assuming it works and big money is made.
    If it doesn’t work then all you do is pay the lawyers as the other side will just file bankruptcy and shut down. IMHO

  2. Roger Bird Says:

    I know Rossi has a cute accent. And I know that everyone is infinitely precious. But I don’t give a rat’s ass who wins or who comes out with it first. Just so as someone gets this revolution going.

  3. Roger Bird Says:

    So, now we have the situation not of whether it works or not, but who gets to market first. Either that is a big step forward, or someone is going to step in some really nasty dog doodoo. Perhaps some of Rossi’s behaviors can be traced back to the fact that he knew he was in a race (and we didn’t) and this caused him to care even less about what the scientists and academics thought since he was fretting about being first.

  4. Roger Bird Says:

    Wouldn’t it be wild if this saved the Greek economy? I doubt it since it won’t grow fast enough.

  5. Renzo Says:

    a Piantelli-Defkalion connection has been denied by Roy Virgilio:

    http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/11/domani-rossi-alla-state-house-del.html

    • Renzo Says:

      Sorry it is in the comments at 23 novembre 2011 13:17
      “Roy Virgilio categorically denied to me any connection between Defkalion & Piantelli and, in fact it is quite angry: they used a picture (one of the Piantelli’s device to prepare the nickel powder) without asking permission … stuff to police report!”

      • brucefast Says:

        I am not able to find your quote on 22passi.blogspot.com

      • Roger Bird Says:

        I seem to have lost the long article (or video, I’m getting old, I can’t remember if it was written or a video) about the history of cold fusion up to about 2004. Could someone re-post it again here? And wasn’t there a historical narrative up to recently centered around Rossi. I could use both of those.

  6. Renzo Says:

    Here I found the direct link to the comment by Daniele Passerini:

    http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/11/domani-rossi-alla-state-house-del.html?showComment=1322050651565#c2913635525517619244

    It is in italian:
    @tutti
    Roy Virgilio mi ha smentito catgoricamente quasivoglia connessione tra Defkalion e Piantelli, anzi è parecchio incavolato: hanno utilizzato una sua foto (quella dell’apparecchio di Piantelli per preparare la polvere di Nickel) senza chiedergli autorizzazione… roba da denuncia!

  7. maryyugo Says:

    I didn’t suggest there was a relationship. I only asked them about it and they characteristically refused to reply.

    Rossi recently wrote in his blog:

    “Look to what is going on around the Balcans: there are clowns saying they have a technology copied from us, actually they have just a moke up, waiting for the piece of info they need to make a real copy. They believed we would have been selling in October the small E-Cats, so announced they would have made a demo in october ( buying a model, disguising it as a copy made by them). But it was just a trap we made. Conclusion: from now on we will be more sealed than ever, and we will be open exclusively with our Customers.”

    I don’t understand why it’s safer to give the device to “customers” rather than let a famous researcher or university test the E-cat as a black box. What would stop a customer from opening up the E-cat to reveal its secret? And a so-called megawatt plant has more than 100 reactors in it.

    • brucefast Says:

      Maryyugo, “I didn’t suggest there was a relationship. I only asked them about it and they characteristically refused to reply.” Are you saying that a suggestion cannot be made in the form of a question? I did provide a link to my source material so that everyone could see exactly what form you used.

      Maryyugo quoting Rossi, “Look to what is going on around the Balcans: there are clowns saying they have a technology copied from us, actually they have just a moke up, waiting for the piece of info they need to make a real copy.”

      And Rossi knows this how? I am sure he hopes this is the case.

      Maryyugo, “I don’t understand why it’s safer to give the device to “customers” rather than let a famous researcher or university test the E-cat as a black box.”

      It is an interesting question. It would appear that Rossi is days away from placing one in the hands of the U of Bologna. It is interesting to speculate on exactly what offers have flown around between universities and Rossi. However, Rossi claims that the U. of Bologna wants significant money and 2 years time to do their study (http://nickelpower.org/2011/10/30/the-aha-moment/). An MIT professor seems to have offered to test the thing. I would think that basic, publishable, black box testing shouldn’t take a month and that a university should be happy to do the study for free, just for the prestige of it all.

      However, there seems to be a formula used by yourself, Craig Binns and others which says, “If Rossi is for real, he should act sanely”. A huge projection of what “sanely” means gets plopped onto the statement.

      However, the real question is the question of whether this statement is valid. If you look at the great inventors, it is typically not so. Inventors are famous for their “crazy” behavior. The “crazy inventor” is an absolute archetype. I, therefore, categorically reject the “he has not acted sanely (read, he has not done it as I think I would have done it if the circumstances are as I think they are) therefore he is a scammer” argument.

  8. Craig Binns Says:

    Edison was for real. He acted sanely. James Watt was for real. He acted sanely. They patented new products – easily reproducible products. They sold them. They made money by doing this, both for themselves and for their investors. Nobody was required to “believe” in them, for they worked by sight, not by faith. So it is with people operating honestly and authentically in the field of production of material objects or sources of energy.

    Swindlers and lunatics, on the other hand … For month after month we are told, as you tell us, that “it would appear that (so and so, who has a history of being banged up in the slammer) is days away from placing (some magical mystery contraption, which is going to refute the wisdom of science and change the world, by puffing out whiffs of steam while it is wired up to the local power supply) in the hands – not of ordinary customers, but of the wise sages of the oldest university on the planet … ” and on and on, interminably.

    • brucefast Says:

      Check out http://www.freeenterpriseland.com/EDISON.html. Edison was as sane and level-headed as a bat. Edison was rather famous for his “interesting” personality.

      Watt was very much an enthusiastic inventor, with a very fertile imagination that sometimes got in the way of finally finishing his works, because he could always see “just one more improvement.”

      http://www.solarnavigator.net/inventors/james_watt.htm

      “They patented new products – easily reproducible products. They sold them. They made money by doing this”

      Yes, and:
      > Rossi is working on the “patented new products” part, but as wikipedia states, the patent offices reject LENR by knee-jerk.
      > Rossi’s internal technology will be “easily reproducible” once his patents are granted. Unfortunately, because the patent office is a holdup, there have been 5 reproductions already.
      > He has already sold one (I know, I know), and clearly has stated his intention of selling more.
      > He made money doing it? This story hasn’t finished being written yet.

  9. Bob Norman Says:

    Edison and Watt behaved sanely because they lived in a simple world. You wrote a patent and the patent office granted it if it made sense or you could show a working prototype. Rossi is confronted with a hostile patent office that refuses to believe in his science. When the DOE and the patent office refuse to listen, you have no choice, you become paranoid and do your best to protect your technology.
    What has amazed me is how rigid the scientific community really is! No wonder breakthroughs take so long, you spend half your efforts fighting skeptics. I find the whole thing shameful and take comfort in the fact that time will prove Rossi correct.

  10. Craig Binns Says:

    Oh sure, I admit that the historic geniuses among scientists have often been completely bananas. Newton, fortunately, summoned up reserves of level-headedness while composing the Principia, and saved his insanity for his religious writings, and his dealings with fellow scholars.

    Einstein was so odd that he has been retrospectively diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome. Galileo was “interesting”, to put it mildly.

    But “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (Matt 7:16) Rossi has brought forth no fruits. He is a thorn and a thistle. It is entirely preposterous to suggest that LENR or mystery nickel-hydrogen fusion reactions would not by now have been substantially demonstrated (even if they could not be theoretically explained) had they been valid or viable. To assert that the US Patent Office is capable of suppressing such demonstrations, even if it wanted to, is ludicrous. Aside from any other consideration, there are other countries in the world apart from the USA, mighty though your Republic may be; and if the Ni + H process can be initiated in a small device apparently capable of being cobbled together by a competent village blacksmith (as opposed to a stellar-temperature-confining Tokamak: unlike Rossi, stars lose rather than obtain energy by fusing elements beyond iron* in the periodic table!) some researcher in Europe, Japan, China or India would have commissioned the construction of one, and gained himself or herself the Nobel Prize, as well as the status of national hero for having solved his or her homeland’s energy problems for all time.

    [*See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star#Nuclear_fusion_reaction_pathways : “The final stage in the stellar nucleosynthesis process is the silicon burning process that results in the production of the stable isotope iron-56. Fusion can not proceed any further [Nickel is element 58 - CB.] except through an endothermic process, and so further energy can only be produced through gravitational collapse.” And nobody – not even among Rossi’s most fervent supporters – has (at least up to now) been mad enough to assert that it is gravitational collapse that is occurring inside the e-cats.]

    • brucefast Says:

      1 – I’m glad to hear that you agree with me that “absolutely bananas” behavior is not evidence of a scam. Please don’t forget it.

      2 – You say “no fruit”, I say “green fruit”. Time will be the judge. (I find it interesting that you regularly denigrade religion and the religious, but use a Biblical quote.)

      3 – Now you are back to the “its not scientifically possible” argument that you kinda abandoned when you discussed the “Ni + H works but Rossi doesn’t” hypothesis. (I contend that this is the only logical argument, that if Ni + H works the chance that others have followed in his footsteps and achieved it, but he has not, is ridiculous.) This argument is answered by the fact that Ni + H has been replicated at least 5 times, and 5 different ways. This argument is also answered by a major scientist announcing that he has theory to explain it, theory that provides answers to other long-standing scientific questions.

    • Roger Bird Says:

      Craig, that was very impressive. However, could you be so kind as to prove that stars do not gain energy by fusing elements beyond iron? This is what the theory implies. But if Rossi, and 14,000 other experiments from 100’s of other laboratories, indicate, the theory may be wrong. And even with the current theory, I don’t see why elements higher than iron can’t be fused just because it would lose energy. If two particles of the right mass and headed towards each other at the right velocity, then shouldn’t they fuse anyway, whether it produces energy or not.

    • Roger Bird Says:

      So, Craig, I take it that you are one of those guys who disbelieve Rossi. I and many others here are those guys who are withholding judgement. This means that we are comfortable with uncertainty. You and many other are not comfortable with uncertainty.

      Of course, there are some here who just plain believe Rossi. For me, that is roughly as foolish as just plain disbelieving. However, believers are not like the disbelievers in so many other ways.

      I think that we should pass a law that if Rossi is right, then you and the other uncertainty-phobic people would be prohibited from benefiting from cold fusion. (:->)

  11. Craig Binns Says:

    ‘You say “no fruit”, I say “green fruit”. Time will be the judge. (I find it interesting that you regularly denigrade religion and the religious, but use a Biblical quote.)’

    Well, if you can collect green figs from thistles, go ahead. 31 December is the moment of time that will be the judge, as agreed.

    The saying in Matthew is a wise one whether you believe that Jesus was God, or simply believe, as I do, that he was a preacher of wisdom. It’s the bit where he wakens up from being dead I’ve got problems with, not the bit about judging things by their results.

    Rodger, stellar nucleosynthesisis really very well understood. I mean that the explosions of stars that have completed the silicon-iron reaction can not merely be explained theoretically, but can be observed. Here we have a remarkably close match of theory and observation. It will take more than Rossi’s steam puffer to shake scientific confidence in this.

    If he wants to establish the reality of his nickel fusion, he MUST allow free scholarly access to his device. He surely knows this, and his reluctance to do so establishes as overwhelmingly probable the supposition that he is a fraud, or (much less likely) a lunatic.

    If it turns out that my scepticism is misplaced, Rodger, I should be prohibited by law from benefiting from cold fusion?!? So people who didn’t believe that the Wright brothers had constructed an aeroplane in 1903 should not have been permitted to travel in an airliner thirty or forty years later – even if they were willing to pay for their tickets. Interesting idea!

    • Roger Bird Says:

      Criag, I am sure that there will be a karmic debt for unwarranted, active, and insulting disbelief. Apparently not being able to fly in an airline will not be one of them, at least not in the life time that one does the disbelief. (:->)

    • brucefast Says:

      “If he wants to establish the reality of his nickel fusion, he MUST allow free scholarly access to his device.” This definitive statement is childish. All he needs to do is let me install an e-cat in my home for one winter.

      Science is NOT the only proof!

      • Roger Bird Says:

        “If he wants to establish the reality of his nickel fusion, he MUST allow free scholarly access to his device.” It is like Craig dictates what is definitive proof with his uncertainty-phobic needs. I would accept as proof a mere 2 days of usage.

        I hope that cold fusion and/or Rossi’s E-Cat spread so far and wide that they are even more difficult to stamp out by governments than is marijuana usage.

      • sdb Says:

        Science may not be the only proof, but all proof is scientific.

        So far we have nothing but performers on a stage. Such a performance is not and never will be proof no matter how oft repeated.

      • Roger Bird Says:

        sdb, we do have a long and honorable (despite what mainstream scientists say) history of hardcore scientists getting results with palladium and nickel cold fusion. We have Prof. Focardi and a bunch of Swedes putting their reputation on the line. We have sonoluminescence, which can at least generate ultra-violet and violet light (which can be seen in a darkened classroom), and perhaps even fusion (but that is controversial). This is all hope generating, but I admit that Rossi is still on probation with me. But it seems like a very bizarre con to me. The only con that seems to make any sense is if Rossi is trying to generate funds in order to make a more stable reaction or complete his work or something along that line.

        Roger

      • brucefast Says:

        sdb, “Science may not be the only proof, but all proof is scientific.”

        But the scientific community has been displaying their yellow belly. The brave scientists have been proving cold fusion for years, but have been hiding their work in the shadows to the point where wikipedia describes cold fusion as “pathological science” and the U.S. patent office automatically rejects all cold fusion related patents. Now that Rossi has dared to lead the way onto this stage, there is a parade of “brave” scientists coming out of the woodwork saying that they have been seeing the same results. Science has become overrun by the consensus, and by a fear, a terror, of being disrespected for having an independent thought. Yet when the dust has settled the scientific community will claim a victory.

        In my opinion the scientific community has proven to be a bunch of consensus driven yellow bellies.

      • Roger Bird Says:

        brucefast, as I said, scientists often act like middle schoolers with their malicious putdowns and avoidance of unpopular people, etc. etc. etc.

      • sdb Says:

        I spoke with Jones before P & F made their premature attention grab and have been monitoring CF/LENR ever since.

        The reason why it isn’t “mainstream” yet is because it is not predictably reproducible. In other words, “do X, Y, Z and you will always get ‘R’.”

        As soon as someone is able to document the steps so that reasonable people can follow them to get the same extraordinary results, mainstream acceptance will follow. Perhaps A.Rossi will be that someone. He isn’t yet.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        Brucefast

        For proof, you say “All he needs to do is let me install an e-cat in my home for one winter.” OK, I’ll go with that. So far, he’s allegedly sold one, which will presumably be used this winter. But sold to whom … ? Used where … ?

        Can you see my problem with the “user report” authentication methodology?

      • Roger Bird Says:

        Craig, did Rossi come to your door and ask you for money on the basis of the E-Cat working? I didn’t think so. So why be in such a rush to judgement. Patience is the best tool that we have. Eventually it will be known whether Rossi has something or not. In the mean time, study these documents and videos: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BarnhartBtechnology.pdf ecatnews.com/?p=1430

  12. Niche Modeling » Cold Fusion, in Walmart Soon. Says:

    [...] LENR/Cold Fusion product not based upon Rossi’s core design, perhaps based on another researcher Piantelli. They claim they will be announcing details of final products coming for sale this next [...]

  13. Bob Norman Says:

    I see that Defkalion will announce Wednesday (30th) that they have some sort of product announcement or test announcement. Hope its solid and removes some of the skepticism.

  14. Craig Binns Says:

    Bob

    The unambiguous appearance of a tested physical product, available for inspection and purchase, would be nice. Just like a new model car or dishwasher.

    But we’ll see. One day to go!

  15. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Defkalion: “We have Rossi’s formula”

    “I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena. (…) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did,” he continued.

    “We solved the problem. Because the problem is that he cannot spread the reaction all over the pipe, and all the heating is concentrated in the middle”, Xanthoulis told Ny Teknik.”

    http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece

  16. Bob Says:

    Defkalion remarks would seem to give Rossi’s lawyer more fuel to sue them. Not the smartest move, it would seem.

    I think they will just be announcing 3rd party testing.

    • brucefast Says:

      That is an interesting question. When I was reading the Defkalion remarks, the spokesperson seemed to be talking about “they” as if it was not at Defkalion that a sample of the core was taken. If Defkalion didn’t abscond with a sample of the core, then they couldn’t be sued for a breach of contract. As Defkalion now knows (presumably) the nature of the Rossi core, they can state with greater confidence that their core is different.

      However, as you know, it isn’t the prototype but the claims that are patented. Even if the Defkalion core is different than Rossi’s, that doesn’t mean that the claims are. It would quite surprise me if we don’t get a technology distracting blood feud in the courts over Defkalion.

      That said, I’m still all ears for Defkalion’s pending announcement.

    • Roger Bird Says:

      Dang! I just assumed that “defkalion” was one of those difficult words to pronounce and so I didn’t need to try to pronounce it or remember it. I guess I am going to have to learn to pronounce and remember it. (:->)

  17. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Company Structure

    Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies (Global) Ltd., is based in Cyprus. It owns full rights to its own technologies and will sell exclusive rights globally for the production of its proprietary products (Hyperion). http://defkalion-energy.com/profile
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I’ve got a hunch that shipping mogul John Fredriksen is backing Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies (Global) Ltd. His oil tankers would suffer greatly from LENR, so if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. Of course his dry freighters would benefit from LENR propulsion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fredriksen

    • Roger Bird Says:

      Nimble people will prosper. Non-nimble people will not prosper. Assuming that they can control a continuous reaction.

  18. Ian Bryce Says:

    My earth-wire hypothesis for Rossi’s claimed energy gains in the press release at http://www.skeptics.com.au
    also explains the Defkalion dispute. Recall that this Greek company
    was in early 2011 a partner of Rossi’s Leonado Corp, with plans that Defkalion would manufacture the ECATS.

    However they fell out about July, with Defkalion CEO Alexandros Xanthoulis developing and offering their own version of ECAT called Hyperion, which reportedly includes technology procured from Rossi without consent.

    Industry observers have been baffled by this apparent petty squabbling over a world-shattering nuclear technology. If Rossi LENR is real, there will be Nobel Prizes. Imagine Nobel laureates attacking each other over “stealing my technology”! Not credible.

    Under my hypothesis, they are really squabbling over the EARTH-WIRE technology, which was used to mislead the worlds scientists, and they perceive as worth millions. They can’t come out and say this, because then their credibility will be shot and the game will be up. It all suddenly makes sense.

    Ian Bryce BSc BE
    Chief Investigator, Australian Skeptics

    • brucefast Says:

      Mr. Bryce, you are confusing.
      I went to your website, and saw this headline:
      “Cold fusion” tests misled scientists
      This puts you solidly in the slow learner category. Is there a problem with this headline?

      “Under my hypothesis, they are really squabbling over the EARTH-WIRE technology”

      What manner of joke is this? Do you really expect people to believe that figuring out a cool way of defrauding people would cause the squibbling? And if this is so, why has Defkalion not done any public demos? They’ve got the technology.

      And how does all of this dispute the claims of the other scientists who also claim LENR? (http://nickelpower.org/2011/12/30/replicators-as-if-december-30-2011/)

      I had withdrawn my criticism of you, as you promised to add a question mark. As you are now proudly posting a statement that should be a question, I have revoked my withdrawal.

      • Roger Bird Says:

        brucefast, thank you again for saving me the trouble of a lot of typing. This theory of Ian Bryce is so absurd! And why would all of those heavy hitters at Defkalion destroy their reputations and their careers for such a transparent and pathetic con which will not last very long? It is beyond me why Ian Bryce would embrace such a lame theory. If only one person were to try it, Rossi, that would actually make more sense, not much sense, but more, than a whole group of people with excellent reputations and resumes.

      • brucefast Says:

        Moreover, the con looses all of its value as soon as some smartass figures it out — maybe an Australian skeptic.

        And of course, there’s no way that people would squabble over billion dollar technologies, they must be squabbling over million dollar technologies — duh.

  19. Simon Derricutt Says:

    Same old…. Ian Bryce won’t leave a dead hypothesis alone. He could prove the validity by setting one up and inviting some world-renowned scientists to come and check his demo. If they found his earth-wire, then he has some egg on his face. If he can hide it well enough that they can’t find it, then his hypothesis will be shown to be valid, but not that that is what actually happened with Rossi.

    Personally, I have respect for James Randi, who has put a million dollars where his mouth is. If Mr. Bryce can get his earth-wire fraud past Randi then I would accept that such a scenario is possible. However, I don’t think it would get by a local electrician, let alone scientists who have a lot of reputation to lose.

    Piantelli claimed a COP of 2-3 in his patent application. Marginal if you want electricity, but OK if you want heat. You might have expected some improvements in 22 years of experimentation, so what Defkalion and Rossi are claiming is not outrageous unless you refuse to believe it can happen at all. Refusing to believe is not a skeptic position, but a religious one. A true skeptic looks for proof, and if the proof is good enough then the premise is accepted and we move on from there.

  20. jetmech Says:

    what new rossi thing is there to discuss?
    there is no rossi ecat device available
    why do skeptics comment on a device that is not
    available? Only a secret customer has such a device
    and he is secret! There currently is NO Rossi Ecat
    device that is available for testing or anything else!
    All we have is speculation is it LENR? Is it Cold fusion?
    Is there a factory? Is there any competition? Does Defkalion have a device?
    NO one knows
    So what is there to be skeptical about? Nothing nada!

    I think it goes like this

    http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/keely/keely.htm

    The same scenario!

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      “why do skeptics comment on a device that is not available?”

      Good question! Why do you comment?

      • Roger Bird Says:

        The skeptics are commenting on Rossi’s and Defkalion’s claims. And they have a perfect right to. I am also tired of the 98.6 degree F air. Defkalion, bless their hearts, have painted themselves into a corner and now they have to produce. I await with extremely keen anticipation.

  21. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Defkalion/NIWeek pdf

    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/download/file.php?id=23

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