This may be great for a compact e-cat system.

New Energy and Fuel reports a breakthrough in thermoelectric technology.

The technology is apparently up to 15% efficient.  This will be quite effective for a very small configuration of e-cat.  If one were to take a small format e-cat which produces 1 kw, and match it with this technology one would end up with a relatively useful 150 watts.  The smaller format e-cat core would potentially be really quite small.  The amount of thermal and radiation shielding required is certainly still a question.  A complete system would have to contain a battery sufficient to provide starting heat.  The whole rig might be able to fit into a lunch box — maybe.

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42 Responses to “This may be great for a compact e-cat system.”

  1. Roger Bird Says:

    It would seem that modern society is being pulled from two contradictory directions. We all want to live in a peaceful, green idyllic environment. Most of us all want the gadgets and goodies that energy provides. Conflicts like this are not necessarily bad. This conflict forces us to think how to bridge the gap. It challenges us. This is good. The greenies hate the industrialization. The people who like industrialization resent the greenies. But other than that hatred, it is all good.

  2. Neil Taylor Says:

    It would seem that this system, incorporating these thermoelectric’s with an e-cat, could be ramped up to run an electric vehicle…

    Neil Taylor

    • Bob Norman Says:

      Neil – A car has a pretty high energy need, you would have to have a pretty big ecat to get the energy you need. I could be wrong, but that seems a bit of a stretch.

      • Craig Binns Says:

        A really big stretch. Thermoelectric devices are already in use for, among other things, driving stovetop fans to circulate warm air in large rooms. Have a look, for example, at the “ecofan” here:

        The inefficiency of the heat to electricity conversion is irrelevant in such applications because wood burning stoves get very hot, and fans use very little power.

        But the Rossi mechanism allegedly produces steam (if it works at all, which I don’t believe), and it would always be more effective, even given an improved conversion rate of 15%, to use this steam directly to heat spaces, or propel vehicles. Steam has been used for these purposes for 200 years.

        Supporters of Rossi’s alleged miracle working contraption may attempt to enhance its credibility by trying to link it in people’s minds with real, useful and demonstrably authentic developments in energy generation. Thermoelectrics works, and there is no mystery about who is buying its products, or where they are manufactured. When will the e-cat be in this happy situation, I wonder?

  3. Bob Norman Says:

    This might be the perfect solution for small tools or games. 15% seems low, but it just might be attractive for some solutions.

  4. LENRyou Says:

    I don’t think steam cars will win.
    I think there will be a LENR reactor insight the closed loop of a Stirling engine and that produces electricity to power the eCar.
    And the best: Cars change from energy consumer to an clean green energy producer. eCar with LENR-Stirling Engine will supply electricity to homes an the grid.


    • brucefast Says:

      LENRyou, have you read my case for the steam car?
      Return of the Steam Car

      While you may ultimately be right, there’s a lot to be said for directly driving the wheels with steam.

      • Roger Bird Says:

        Professor Jay Leno, a leading expert on steam cars, said that the steam car that he was demonstrating had something like 1200 degrees F. going under the hood, or some really high figure. I don’t recall exactly what it was. But it was high. Can an E-Cat get that high, assuming that the E-Cat is real?

  5. G_Zingh Says:

    Not following this. If it outputs 1 Kw thermal at a 1:6 COP you need an electrical input of 166 watts. So if this thermal/electrical converter is 15% efficient you get a net gain of 150 – 166 or a total electrical output of – 16 watts.

    I guess that proves the E-cat doesn’t work? Watts up with that?

  6. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    I wonder if his ‘breakthrough’ is thermoelectric?
    Rossi said in the interview that production of electricity from the E-Cat has always been for him a major target and that “it will take, until the last week I said a couple of years, but today I can say one year because today, just today, (I don’t know because today is 11.11.11) we have resolved a very big problem which has made very short the time remaining to be able to produce also electric power, beside heat and cool with these apparatuses.”

    • Bob Norman Says:

      Iggy, I don’t think that is it, wish it was. Rossi has stated that he has found a new fluid that lets him un at 450 degrees Centigrade, so he can work with regular turbines. He said the new fluid runs with the reactor in a stable manor. It looks like he is starting to get a handle on the stability issue. He said he learned a lot from the military guy that ran the tests for the Oct 28 testing. He mentioned someone he is working with Fioravanti also. Here is a link.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I wonder what Rossi means by ‘primary fluid’? Another heat transfer fluid for the water jacket? Like the heat transfer oil he mentioned a couple of months back? Or is he talking about a reaction fluid inside the reactor?

      • brucefast Says:

        Iggy, he would clearly be talking about the cooling liquid, a replacement for the water. It would likely be a heat transfer oil or liquid salt (not usually sodium chloride).

  7. LENR4you Says:

    Dear Mr. Rossi,

    think not only in megawatts.
    Also µW are interesting.
    The world’s smallest Stirling engine measures a few micrometers. Built in Stuttgart Germany:

    That’s the advantage of LENR energy: Scalable Nuclear energy densities from µW to GW.

    Greetings LENR4you

  8. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Neil Taylor
    December 30th, 2011 at 1:47 AM

    Dear Mr. Rossi,

    This NEW technology for converting heat to electricity may be a possibility for marrying with your E-Cat. Here is the companies website link:


    Andrea Rossi
    December 30th, 2011 at 4:19 AM

    Dear Neil Taylor:
    Thank you, I am going to study also this,
    Warm regards,

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      I see where Quax already posted on this in May.

      • Bob Norman Says:

        Iggy, there is a guy in Texas that has something almost identical. He came out of the Satellite efforts and has developed a device similar to what they use in space. He uses the same concept and has pretty good working devices, but his efficiency looks closer to 25 to 30 %. Her is his link.

        I often wondered why this hasn’t caught on more.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Looks like his 1993 patent is near expiration.

  9. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    This device may help on start-up:

  10. Iggy Dalrymple Says:

    Thane C Heins regenerative motor.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      3rd party replication of Heins effect.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        “Perepiteia’s process begins by overloading the generator to get a current, which typically causes the wire coil to build up a large electromagnetic field. Usually, this kind of electromagnetic field creates an effect called the back electromotive force (back EMF) due to Lenz’s law. The effect should repel the spinning magnets on the rotor, and slow them down until the motor stops completely, in accordance with the law of conservation. However, instead of stopping, the rotor accelerates – i.e. the magnetic friction did not repel the magnets and wire coil. Heins states that the steel rotor and driveshaft had conducted the magnetic resistance away from the coil and back into the electric motor. In effect, the back EMF was boosting the magnetic fields used by the motor to generate electrical energy and cause acceleration. The faster the motor accelerated, the stronger the electromagnetic field it would create on the wire coil, which in turn would make the motor go even faster. Heins seemed to have created a positive feedback loop. To confirm the theory, Heins replaced part of the driveshaft with plastic pipe that wouldn’t conduct the magnetic field. There was no acceleration.[7]
        Scientific examination

        In early 2008, Heins was given access to equipment to demonstrate it by professor Riadh Habash of the University of Ottawa, who says of it, “It accelerates, but when it comes to an explanation, there is no backing theory for it. That’s why we’re consulting MIT. But at this time we can’t support any claim.”[8]

        After examining the machine and witnessing a demonstration, Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) professor Markus Zahn admitted that he could not fully explain its operation. Although he refused to call it perpetual motion, he stated that it might be an extremely efficient motor.[9] Regarding the device, Zahn stated that “It’s an unusual phenomena [sic] I wouldn’t have predicted in advance. But I saw it. It’s real. Now I’m just trying to figure it out…To my mind this is unexpected and new, and it’s worth exploring all the possible advantages once you’re convinced it’s a real effect.”[10] However, even if Perepiteia does not produce perpetual motion, Zahn still believes that the device could have considerable practical applications, noting that “There are an infinite number of induction machines in people’s homes and everywhere around the world. If you could make them more efficient, cumulatively, it could make a big difference.”[7]”

    • Roger Bird Says:

      Getting something for nothing? I doubt it.

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Roger – as far as I can tell, this seems to make an inefficient system less inefficient. I can’t see (yet) an energy gain such that you could loop the output back to the input (so it runs itself) and get spare energy out for free. Such things could happen, though (we don’t know everything), and they should carry on experimenting. If they do get it to produce free energy then the textbooks would have to be rewritten.

        Providing they’re not asking me (or governments) for money to develop it, I’m happy to read about it now and again.

    • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

      In Heins’ original 2008 prototype, he claims a 10 to 15% increase in theoretical range for an electric vehicle. With his intermediate and subsequent prototypes, he claims possible unlimited range.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        Looks like his imagination collided with reality.

        Electric Car Conversion

        By emailing , you can now purchase from us an all-electric car conversion similar to our demo car pictured above, the Luxury Electric, or other conversions, including all-electric or conversion from hybrid plug-in hybrid. Conversion of a Hybrid to plugin can be done for $16,000 to $20,000 depending on the number of cars or other factors. In the future we will offer other and lower priced models as our volume grows and industry partnering opportunities develop. For a Luxury Electric conversion of an Acura TL, which competes with the Mercedes E-Class in size and luxury, email us for our current pricing and timing. See our demo car page for details on the Acura TL conversion. Conversion of other cars call also be discussed.

        Features of conversions from gas to all-electric

        No Tune-ups required (no points, plugs, carburetor, or oil)
        No Gasoline Required
        No radiator to water
        Electric motor requires no maintenance
        No muffler to ever replace
        No catalytic converter to maintain or have inspected

        Features of conversion of Ford Escape Hybrid to plug-in

        All Electric Range

        50 miles

        Virtual All Electric Top Speed

        80 miles per hour

        Battery Storage

        15.5 Kilowatt Hours

        Battery Type

        Thundersky Lithium Iron Phosphate

        Conversion System Weight

        200 pounds

        Conversion System Size

        33″ x 30″ x 7.25″

        Pack Installation Location

        Rear Cargo Deck Area

        Rear Cargo Deck Height Reduction

        7 inches

        Battery Charger Location

        Underneath near spare tire

        Hybrids Compatibility

        Ford Escape, Toyota Highlander, Toyota Camry

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        I’m curious if his electric car conversion incorporates his claimed invention?

      • Simon Derricutt Says:

        Iggy – with a range of 50 miles (and 140 for the luxury model, it look like that “unlimited range” prediction is definitely not included. They may have done better choosing a small, light and aerodynamic car to convert, to get the range up a bit – 50 miles is a bit low for most people in Europe, and in the States it is ridiculously small.

      • Iggy Dalrymple Says:

        For an apples vs oranges comparison, the old generation 3 Prius had available an after-market Plug-in conversion available from A123 Battery Co for $10,000 which gave an increase in range of 35 to 40 miles. This isn’t the same as an electric only range because the Prius doesn’t have an electric only mode.

        Of course the Prius is now available in Plug-In Hybrid as a factory option.

        Personally, I’d rather have a Plug-In Prius Hybrid at 1/2 the electric range because the Prius has an engine to take you home after the batteries run down.

        The GM Volt might turn out to be a decent option but it’s too expensive for my pocketbook right now.

      • Roger Bird Says:

        The Volt is too expensive even if the body politic is paying for $7,000 of the price.

  11. Neil Taylor Says:

    Another break through in thermoelectric’s?

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    • Craig Binns Says:

      Hi Michael

      I see you’ve stopped taking you meds again and gone back to writing gibberish. Naughty boy!

  13. iggydalrymple Says:

    Surprising material could play role in saving energy
    Fri, 04/18/2014 – 7:56am
    Megan Fellman, Northwestern Univ.
    Get today’s R&D headlines and news – Sign up now!
    One strategy for addressing the world’s energy crisis is to stop wasting so much energy when producing and using it, which can happen in coal-fired power plants or transportation. Nearly two-thirds of energy input is lost as waste heat.

    Now Northwestern Univ. scientists have discovered a surprising material that is the best in the world at converting waste heat to useful electricity. This outstanding property could be exploited in solid-state thermoelectric devices in a variety of industries, with potentially enormous energy savings.

    An interdisciplinary team led by inorganic chemist Mercouri G. Kanatzidis found the crystal form of the chemical compound tin selenide conducts heat so poorly through its lattice structure that it is the most efficient thermoelectric material known. Unlike most thermoelectric materials, tin selenide has a simple structure, much like that of an accordion, which provides the key to its exceptional properties.

    The efficiency of waste heat conversion in thermoelectrics is reflected by its figure of merit, called ZT. Tin selenide exhibits a ZT of 2.6, the highest reported to date at around 650 C. The material’s extremely low thermal conductivity boosts the ZT to this high level, while still retaining good electrical conductivity.

    The ZT metric represents a ratio of electrical conductivity and thermoelectric power in the numerator (which needs to be high) and thermal conductivity in the denominator (which needs to be low).

    Potential areas of application for the high-temperature thermoelectric material include the automobile industry (a significant amount of gasoline’s potential energy goes out of a vehicle’s tailpipe), heavy manufacturing industries (such as glass and brick making, refineries, coal- and gas-fired power plants) and places where large combustion engines operate continuously (such as in large ships and tankers).

    “A good thermoelectric material is a business proposition—as much commercial as it is scientific,” said Vinayak P. Dravid, a senior researcher on the team. “You don’t have to convert much of the world’s wasted energy into useful energy to make a material very exciting. We need a portfolio of solutions to the energy problem, and thermoelectric materials can play an important role.”

    Details of tin selenide, probably among the world’s least thermally conductive crystalline materials, are published in Nature.

    The discovery comes less than two years after the same research group broke the world record with another thermoelectric material they developed in the lab with a ZT of 2.2.

    “The inefficiency of current thermoelectric materials has limited their commercial use,” said Kanatzidis, a prof. of chemistry in the Weinberg College of Arts and Sciences. “We expect a tin selenide system implemented in thermoelectric devices to be more efficient than other systems in converting waste heat to useful electricity.”

    The material, despite having a very simple structure, conducts heat so poorly that even moderate thermoelectric power and electrical conductivity are enough to provide high thermoelectric performance at high temperature.

    The researchers did not expect to find tin selenide to be such a good thermoelectric material.

    “Lidong Zhao, the first author of the paper, deserves a lot of credit for looking at tin selenide,” said Kanatzidis, who also holds a joint appointment at Argonne National Laboratory. ”He is a good example of the curious people we try to attract to Northwestern.”

    Zhao, a postdoctoral fellow in Kanatzidis’ research group, grew crystals of tin selenide and measured the crystal in three directions, along each axis. He found that the thermal conductivity was “ridiculously low” along the a-axis but also along the other two axes.

    “The results are eye-opening because they point in a direction others would not look,” Dravid said. “This material has the potential to be applied to other areas, such as thermal barrier coatings.”

    Kanatzidis and Zhao identified the potential of the material intuitively by looking at its crystal structure. They confirmed its exceptional thermoelectric properties and then turned to Dravid and Christopher M. Wolverton to uncover how the crystal was behaving and why.

    “We found that the bonds between some atoms in this compound are very weak and lead to exceptionally soft, floppy atomic vibrations,” said Wolverton, a senior author of the paper and a prof. of materials science at the McCormick School.

    Wolverton, an expert in computational materials science related to energy applications, showed that the accordion-like structure and weak bonds lead to atoms that vibrate very slowly.

    “These very weak vibrations are responsible for the inability of the material to conduct heat,” Wolverton said. “Our theory provides the scientific basis as to why the material behaves the way it does and also provides us with a new direction to search for even higher-efficiency materials.”

    “Tin selenide reminds us of that popular TV commercial for a memory foam mattress in which a person can jump on one side of the mattress while a glass of wine a few feet away is unperturbed—the vibrations do not reach the glass because of the mattress’ material,” Kanatzidis said.

    “Similarly, in tin selenide, heat cannot travel well through this material because its soft, accordion-like structure doesn’t transmit vibrations well,” he said. “One side of tin selenide gets hot—where the waste heat is, for example—while the other side remains cool. This enables the hot side to generate useful electricity.”

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