My take on October 6th e-cat test

I’ve been dissatisfied with the reporting of the October 6th e-cat test.  So I’ve done some of my own number crunching using data provided by NyTeknik*.

I massaged their data as follows:

  • I deleted all rows that did not contain data from the external heat exchanger (most rows).
  • I added the column: “Delta t” which uses the Excel formula: “= H2 – G2″.
  • I added the “Watts” column which assumes a 6,000 cc/hour water flow through the heat exchanger, and uses formula “= I2 * 700.
  • I added rows indicating where the start and stop of self-sustain mode is.  This data was gathered from the NyTeknik “detailed report”.
  • I calculated average power as: = SUM(J27:J40) /14
The resultant data is:
             Date       Time     Ambient [°C]Cell 2 out[°C]   In [°C]   Heat Exch InHeat Exch Out            Delta t                Watts
      7110/6/2011   11:22:01             28.7         29.9       25.6           25.6         29.9                4.3                 3010
     95410/6/2011   11:52:01             28.7         29.7       25.5           24.7         24.2               -0.5                 -350
    154010/6/2011   12:12:01             28.8         31.1       25.7           24.5           24               -0.5                 -350
    183510/6/2011   12:22:01             28.9         34.4       25.7           24.5           24               -0.5                 -350
    213510/6/2011   12:32:01             28.8         40.1       25.7           24.7         24.2               -0.5                 -350
    270310/6/2011   12:52:01             28.8           59       25.7           24.4         23.6               -0.8                 -560
    299910/6/2011   13:02:01             28.9           68       25.8           24.7         23.9               -0.8                 -560
    334610/6/2011   13:14:01             28.9         77.7       25.8           24.4         23.7               -0.7                 -490
    358610/6/2011   13:22:01             28.9           84       25.8           24.4         23.7               -0.7                 -490
    404910/6/2011   13:38:01             28.9         94.8       25.8           24.9         26.3                1.4                  980
    413910/6/2011   13:41:01               29         96.8         25           25.2         27.2                  2                 1400
    434910/6/2011   13:48:01               29        101.5         25           25.2         28.7                3.5                 2450
    472110/6/2011   14:01:01             29.1        110.2         25             26         32.9                6.9                 4830
    499110/6/2011   14:10:01             29.2        115.2       25.1           26.3         30.7                4.4                 3080
    514110/6/2011   14:15:01             29.2        117.3       25.1             26         29.9                3.9                 2730
    529110/6/2011   14:20:01             29.3        118.9       25.2           26.4         30.7                4.3                 3010
    557610/6/2011   14:30:01             29.4        121.5       25.3           26.1           30                3.9                 2730
    578610/6/2011   14:37:01             29.5          122       25.3           26.3         30.1                3.8                 2660
    605510/6/2011   14:46:00             29.6        121.6       25.3           26.1         29.6                3.5                 2450
    615910/6/2011   14:50:01             29.6        121.2       25.4           26.2         29.6                3.4                 2380
    618910/6/2011   14:51:01             29.6        121.2       25.4           26.3         30.2                3.9                 2730
    642910/6/2011   14:59:01             29.7        120.9       25.4           26.1         30.2                4.1                 2870
    719010/6/2011   15:25:01             29.8        119.2       25.4           26.2           31                4.8                 3360
    768410/6/2011   15:42:03               30        121.8       25.5           25.9         28.9                  3                 2100
                                                       Enter "self-sustain mode"
    810110/6/2011   15:56:01             30.1        123.8       25.6           24.9         33.4                8.5                 5950
    859310/6/2011   16:13:01             30.2        121.7       25.6           24.7         32.9                8.2                 5740
    886310/6/2011   16:22:01             30.3        118.9       25.6           24.9         31.7                6.8                 4760
    932510/6/2011   16:38:01             30.3        115.4       25.7           24.5         33.7                9.2                 6440
    968510/6/2011   16:50:01             30.2          115       25.7           24.7         35.5               10.8                 7560
   1020710/6/2011   17:08:01             30.1        114.8       25.8             25           34                  9                 6300
   1056710/6/2011   17:20:01               30        114.4       25.8           24.7         31.3                6.6                 4620
   1093910/6/2011   17:33:01               30        114.3       25.9           24.4         30.5                6.1                 4270
   1173210/6/2011   18:00:01             29.8        116.2       24.5           24.4         31.6                7.2                 5040
   1291210/6/2011   18:40:01             29.6        116.8       24.8           24.3         29.6                5.3                 3710
   1328410/6/2011   18:53:01             29.6        116.4       24.8           24.3           29                4.7                 3290
   1358410/6/2011   19:03:01             29.5        116.6       24.9           24.5         29.8                5.3                 3710
   1413710/6/2011   19:22:01             29.5        114.5       25.8           24.2         32.4                8.2                 5740  Average power:
   1422710/6/2011   19:25:01             29.4        113.3       26.7           24.3         32.4                8.1                 5670           5200
                                                       Begin Shutdown
   1466110/6/2011   19:40:01             29.4        108.1       27.4             24         27.4                3.4                 2380
   1502110/6/2011   19:52:01             29.4        104.6       27.5           24.3         26.9                2.6                 1820
   1520110/6/2011   19:58:01             29.4        103.1       27.5           24.4         26.5                2.1                 1470

A few notes:

  • The average output power I am seeing in self-sustain mode is 5,200 watts.   Only 1/3 of the e-cat was running, so the e-cat was demonstrating that it can operate at 15,600 watts.  Though this is less than the rated 35,000 watts, it remains to be impressive!
  • At time stamp 15:53 in the NyTeknik detailed report it says:
    Power to the resistance was set to zero.
    A device “producing frequencies” was switched on.
    Overall current 432 mA. Voltage 230 V.
    Current through resistance was zero, voltage also zero.
    From this moment the E-cat ran in self sustained mode.

    This is an interesting statement, it would appear that Dr. Rossi is bombarding the e-cat with a frequency (electromagnetic?) which inspires the reaction.  This is the first I have heard of such a bombardment.  However, it is only after this that the e-cat seems to be generating power.

  • I am somewhat confused by the lack of data consistency.  I would assume that the T-out from the e-cat should directly and consistently translate to the delta T of the heat exchanger.
  • I am confused that they are running the e-cat water out of the heat exchanger and down the drain without measuring its temperature.  Any inefficiencies in the heat exchanger should show up as heat in that water.
  • I would very much have loved to see a logging of the water flow through the heat exchanger as well as a logging of the water flow through the e-cat.

* The source data can be obtained from the “temperature data” link on this page: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece

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23 Responses to “My take on October 6th e-cat test”

  1. Emerson Says:

    Why do you care about watts?

    The important thing are the joules. The important thing is to know how many joules of input and how many joules of output.

    • brucefast Says:

      The relationship between watts and joules is very close, 1 watt = 1 joule per second. However, once you have watts, a number that everyone is familiar with, you can get watt-hours with nothing more than a watch.

    • Bob Norman Says:

      Emerson – I think in terms of Watts because it tells me how much power I have to do something. If you give me BTU or Joules it just tells me a total energy. either way it doesn’t mater as you can usually calculate with either.

  2. Gary W Scott Says:

    I just did a data calc on power from Lewan’s report. I show about 21kwh thermal net generated. (about 5kwh used and 26 kwh total extracted) I integrated each second of temperature change and flow rate in excel.

    • brucefast Says:

      Interesting.

      Was your result the energy in and energy out for the entire time the e-cat was being demonstrated? Where did you get your number for flow rate?

      My numbers only cover the heat out of the heat exchanger (delta t * 700 cc/sec. water flow). During the 3.5 hours of testing, my numbers show 18.2 kw/h.

      • Gary W Scott Says:

        I used the 178 g/sec of the secondary of heat exchanger from 11:19 to 20:00 and then the temperature change at various time points from Lewan’s excel sheet. I didn’t calc for primary circuit since steam and water fraction is unknown to me. I’ll upload/send you a copy if you send me an email link.

  3. Carlo Ombello Says:

    I agree on the fact that NyTeknik’s calcs were too much on the safe side. In particular, it should be noted how energy was produced throughout the day and not just during the topic self-sustaining mode, as well as that a lot of heat was lost throughout the apparatus for the whole duration of the experiment. The outside temperature of the e-cat was about 80°C!!!

    Regards
    Carlo Ombello

  4. Gary W Scott Says:

    I used the 178 g/sec of the secondary of heat exchanger from 11:19 to 20:00 and then the temperature change at various time points from Lewan’s excel sheet. I didn’t calc for primary circuit since steam and water fraction is unknown to me. I’ll upload/send you a copy if you send me an email link.

  5. Bob Norman Says:

    I went to the Niteknik web site and saw a video of the setup and description, but where are you guys seeing the data. I must be blind!

    • brucefast Says:

      Half way down the article are two links in the flow of the text. One is “detailed report” and the other “temperature data”. I’d provide the link for you directly, but its an excel spreadsheet file which doesn’t show up as an address in my Google Chrome.

  6. Gary Scott Says:

    Bob: Click on the bold words in second paragraph of Nyteknik article

    http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece

    “The power to the resistor was then switched off, and the reactor functioned in self sustained mode for about three and a half hours, with no measurable signs of decrease (see detailed report and temperature data).” or try these links

    http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284968.ece/BINARY/Temp+data+Ecat_6_10_11+%28xls%29

    http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284962.ece/BINARY/Test+of+E-cat+October+6+%28pdf%29

  7. Bob Norman Says:

    Thanks Bruce and Gary I found it!

  8. jetmech Says:

    why is the t out lower than or equal to the t in for almost 2.4 hours
    with the electrical heater is on?
    what is the large metal piece on top of the ecat at the water outlet?
    it has been misidentified as the heat exchanger it is not.
    the heat exchanger is downstream and identified in the ny technik video by rossi it is separate from the ecat watch the video by lewan.

    • Gary Scott Says:

      The finned object in the box appears to be the primary heat exchanger to transfer reactor heat into the primary water stream, producing steam or hot water. There is reportedly 15 liters of water in the box. The sound of water boiling must be the water around the finned heat exchanger. The second heat exchanger transfers heat between primary and secondary water flow loops. Unfortunately they didn’t have a continuous temperature recording published on this secondary loop so the data from M. Lewan’s report looks noisy.

  9. jetmech Says:

    why is such an astounding device (if it works) tested with such cheap chinese uncalibrated instruments AND you said it

    The water was just left going down the drain?

    this is supposed to be a commercial ready to be sold device
    is rossi going to clone himself so he can personally run every
    device he sells??
    all i got to say is “sumpin aint right”
    look at photos of his 1 mw device in the shipping container
    where is the computer controls? look at the sloppy insulation job
    would you buy that?

    • brucefast Says:

      “why is such an astounding device (if it works) tested with such cheap chinese uncalibrated instruments”

      This statement is PAINFULLY overblown. If you consider the instruments used, most were high grade scientific instruments. The one serous exception is the infamous bathroom scale. However, this scale was only used to weigh the 80kg box, not the individual components or the hydrogen. The weighing of this box before and after the reaction was done to eliminate a hidden source of consumed fuel such as gasoline. However, the reaction wasn’t long enough to eliminate batteries (80kg of top end batteries could have done more than this test did) so the “scam” hypothesis was not truly eliminated by this test. The bathroom scale, therefore, is beside the point.

      “The water was just left going down the drain?” Yup. The water from the e-cat side of the heat exchanger was sent down the drain unmeasured. However, the only thing that measuring this would do is to increase the amount of measured energy, it COULD NOT DECREASE the measured output energy.

      “look at photos of his 1 mw device in the shipping container
      where is the computer controls?” In all demos of the e-cat there have been electronic controls, they are not attached to the e-cat unit. (I believe there are some electronics inside the unit that do not have displays.)

      “look at the sloppy insulation job, would you buy that?” Oh if you only could remember the early days of computers. It was amazing some of the things that were sold. This thing does look like a prototype, but that is what it is. Things change when volumes get up to the millions and machines assemble everything.

      “is rossi going to clone himself so he can personally run every
      device he sells?” This is a bit of a valid question. Dr. Rossi does seem to have a bit of trouble letting others take the controls of this thing. I think he may have a difficult time letting “home owners” run this thing without him being there. We’ll have to see how that plays out.

  10. Bob Norman Says:

    What I see by this experiment is an Engineering prototype grade Product. To be production worthy there needs to be a lot of advances in packaging and electronics. To jump from this to production will not occur in November, it will take Rossi 6 months and a lot of help to move this into production. I think the roll-out will be very slow and we will have an energy revolution going on and most people wont even know it. Rossi needs deep pockets to help.

    • brucefast Says:

      “To be production worthy there needs to be a lot of advances in packaging and electronics.” I think you don’t understand Dr. Rossi. If he’s anything, he’s determined; and that is one of his greatest attributes. I expect that he will sell some units in November because he said he would. I expect that they will be hand-built by Dr. Rossi himself. I expect that they will be rough around the edges. However, I think he will deliver because I think he is the kind of guy that is determined to meet those targets.

      “I think the roll-out will be very slow and we will have an energy revolution going on and most people wont even know it.” In the current state of contracts with American companies, etc., I think you’re right.

      “Rossi needs deep pockets to help.” Deep pockets would be great! However, I don’t think the deep pockets quite know how to do business with eccentric inventors. If I was in their boots, I’d learn how real quick, because 50% of something amazing is a heck of a lot more than 0% of something amazing.

      This will be the topic of my next post, but I don’t know if I can pull off the post in the next couple of days as Canada is celebrating Thanksgiving this weekend.

      • Bob Norman Says:

        I think Rossi will sell units right away, there are always a certain percentage of early adapters and people that want to see whats inside. These sails will keep him going as the word spreads and he fine tunes the design.
        I think mass produced hardware and simple electronics will take another round of design before it becomes plug and play for the average citizen. In the meantime Rossi can make a fortune on selling MWatt plants, as the cost savings is compelling. The MWatt plants will have technical people that will watch them closely. Rossi has made statements to make me believe not all sequences are fully automated yet, to ship to most domestic uses it must be 100% automated.
        I think what he has is outstanding, but it will be a while before they ship everywhere. He know faces the reality of ramping production and that eats cash. Don’t want to sound negative, as I’m not, but the road ahead is just as hard as is invention process.

  11. Todd M Says:

    This may be the wrong thread but does anyone know where Rossi is with the US company and the Greek company. I heard the Greek company venture had ended but was back on again. The US company was off?? There was also a rumor about Rossi possibly working with a well know VC firm in Silicon Valley. I hope it does work but even if it does – there are entrenched forces like oil companies, nuke power, etc that do not want competition. Also govts trying to regulate the possibility that this is some sub nuke reaction.

    I wonder with a staff of 20 workers, how many eCats in the container, they could make in a week. 10? 15? I hope it really work.

    • brucefast Says:

      The Greek company, Defkalion, is currently off. It is very clear that they would like to mend fences with Rossi, but so far they have not succeeded.

      The US company seems to still be on. It would appear that Rossi had some legal issues with moving the plant to the US. It also would appear that the US company will receive and test the plant in Italy on October 28.

      I have no better idea than you do of how fast early production will be, but I doubt if they will produce more than 100 or so by the end of this year.

      • Bob Norman Says:

        Bruce, the defkalion web site seems to have come back to life. They posted that they understand the reaction and have engineered the Hyperion with good Engineering practices and are ready for a public roll out pending further testing. They even poked fun at Rossi, asking why he used their old dilapidated hardware.
        The claim to be talking with 60 some companies from different countries. They made it sound like they were close to shipping product.
        If this is real, the race is on. The key question, is it real.

  12. Theodore Rigley Says:

    So you guys don’t think Rossi is a fraud?

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